Sim Racing servo ffb systems : OSW & Bodnar

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Adrianstealth, Jun 1, 2015.

  1. metalnwood

    metalnwood Registered

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    True, it's not for everyone but for those that have stumbled and had problems the online support by other owners is second to none.
     
  2. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    I would make one small tweak to this statement:

    The servo part is not the reason for the performance difference here, since racing sims do not work via position control. The difference lies with the bodnar and OSW using AC induction motors which one would expect to produce a smoother and more refined torque reproduction/result than stepper motors. There is no prerequisite motor type for the creation of a servo motor. Any electric motor regardless of it being AC/DC, brushed/brushless, etc, (so even a stepper motor) can be used as the foundation for constructing a servo motor by the simple addition of a servomechanism (i.e. encoder and servo controller).
     
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  3. PaulG

    PaulG Registered

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    To me that last part is kind of a plus. If something goes wrong (and that part is no longer under its individual warranty), at least you can just buy a replacement part at cost. You won't be able to do that with an Accuforce.

    You probably don't have iracing access, but they really are getting to the point where they'll be selling kits you just need to wire up (which anyone who's ever assembled a computer would have no issue with).

    I also see on the iracing forums that they took donations to buy David Tucker (iracing coder) the entry level OSW. In the review thread, they're proposing they send it to Barry first (and Barry can forward it to David when done). This would be great, cause I'd love to see Barry tear it down. It's probably unreasonable to expect him to not use guarded words (given the mafia out there), but if it was truly superior, you'd be still be able to read between the lines with his review.

    Or better yet, it'd probably be best to see if he could round up a group of iracers again. I'm sure his motivation (for this last review) was to have a bunch of people give uncensored reviews so people couldn't train their venom on him (and claim he was being biased and had an agenda).
     
  4. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    Good luck to you dripper if you ever wish to develop your own system ;)
     
  5. traind

    traind Registered

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    Barry has spent thousands with Simexperience so anyone claiming he has a bias against them must be crazy. On top of that he said he would like the AF to be best as it integrates with his system better.

    There is some decent evidence he did not have a good set up baseline on the AF though. The iracing forum has a good discussion of this

    Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2
     
  6. PaulG

    PaulG Registered

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    It is kind of funny that gets leveled against him. His barn is like a shrine to Simexperience. He's got the Stage 4 motion rig. He literally said, during the review, that if you have enough money for a DD wheel, you need to at least buy Simvibe for the shakers.

    Oh, well. Like I said in the iracing forum, I'm all for opinions and such, but I'd put a lot more stock in them if the detractors were the ones who'd actually used all three systems. I don't know how you can discount a whole host of opinions from guys who've used all three (including a couple who actually own the AF), yet think their opinion should be worth something even though they've only used one. How do they know? They can't possibly know which they prefer unless they've actually tested them all.
     
  7. whiplash

    whiplash Registered

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    I am really interested in a direct comparison of the OSW with the small MIGE vs. the Fanatec CSW V2. I know that it is a totally different story, but since i'm not able to try a servo wheel in action, i would really like to know what the differences are. I run my CSW V2 up to 150 FFB (the max with the current firmware), and with certain cars in rF2 i would like more detailed FFB. Can anybody with such experience tell more?

    Not that i am not happy with my CSW, it is a great piece of kit, but i like building stuff myself... :)
     
  8. traind

    traind Registered

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    I am just a fellow shopper with no direct experience to call upon. However, I have read and watched a lot of reviews of direct drive wheels. All of them point to a very clear, noticeable and sizeable step up in quality of FFB (precision, speed, power, detail) over any other type of wheel--which includes even high quality non-direct drive wheels like the CSW. Thus, there is no reason to doubt the OSW configuration you are thinking of would not be noticeably superior in FFB quality to your CSW. A number of people online that have tried both have said as much.

    Whether it would be personally worth it to spend the additional money on the upgrade is a question only you can answer.
     
  9. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    sorry if i sounded picky there, i just felt it's an important distinction to make for why they perform differently in a racing sim application (regardless of torque output range). In no way does that fact play down the performance difference of the bodnar and OSW vs the AF..…just makes clear the actual reason for it.

    And now we have evidence of the type of motor used by AF, i can agree that it's not going to be as capable as the motors used by bodnar and OSW.
     
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  10. Jokeri

    Jokeri Registered

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  11. Joe

    Joe Registered

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    I agreed with you and conclusion of the video in the end.
    stepper motor torque is measured by holding torque as for this motor being about 13 Nm. While fast turning, it will drop considerably. There is no so called "peak torque" per se, as the resolution limited by 1.8 degree of step angle between the teeth. A servo motor's mim angle is determined by the duration of a pulse that is applied, which can be measured by "pulse/peak force/torque" in the duration. The Bodnar and OSW motors rated at peak torque 21 and 25 Nm, respectively. Sim racing FFB output rate (rF2 and iRacing) is 100 Hz that is 10ms interval. For sharp/fast turn, the stepper motor could lost its resolution in comparison with servo motor. The tests done in the video is pretty reasonable. They shall use only raw FFB data and with same cars, that says the simX SW shall be turned to min with no other effects being added. Now we know, if I were them, I will get a China made $250 servo motor instead of a China made $80 stepper motor.
     
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  12. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    I am both shocked and impressed that SimX went with a stepper motor. Far easier to make it work (as in the electronics to drive the DC motor) and much cheaper. Great business sense for SimX to have done so. If someone were to get a DIY DD package equivalent to what you get with an OSW (so non of the fancy packaging stuff etc from a branded product) but with a stepper motor, i'd guess you'd probably be able to make it for around 600 euros (with maybe even a higher than 13Nm torque stepper inclusive as well) based on the price for a DIY OSW with AC induction motor that costs more not only for the motor but for the more complex electronics to drive it. That would be mighty impressive wouldn't it? A price less than the CSW v2 base alone yet more than double the torque as well as significantly faster response and ffb clarity (due to being DD). It still wouldn't perform to the same level as the bodnar and OSW AC motors (per the same torque range) but could easily have the greatest price to torque and performance ratio of any other ffb wheel on the market. Perhaps only time till someone does an OSW style stepper motor package, lol.

    Comparatively, SimX is charging 1300 Euro for the DIY kit (motor, controller/psu and cables only).

    I understand they are a business at the end of the day but jesus christ those are some nice looking profit margins and for a warranty that only lasts 1 year. I suppose it's likely the same profit margin percentage as for the other wheels on the market as well. Just that the physical profit margin per sale is that much greater than for the cheaper wheels (but ofc naturally needs to be due to less total sales for more expensive wheels).

    This price benefit/savings between DIY and branded would be similar to the OSW vs bodnar i guess, so nothing new/special. Just that 600 euros is that much closer to affordability by mass market given the demand for CSW v2's which comes in at 700 euros (now) for the base alone.

    (ofc the 600 euro price tag is just my guesstimate and some may disagree).
     
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  13. Joe

    Joe Registered

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    value and price are all determined by market, due to capital market. If there is demand, price will be up otherwise will be down or no sell.
    I bought their stage I kit a few years ago, for $2k. I checked the price of those two actuators in Japan. I could have ordered directly from distributor for about $400 each. Then I had to order cables and controller, etc. The price added up did not look good at all. My estimated the profit margin made up from the Controller simX developed is limited amount $500 - $700 at most. This is sizable profit however. But for the volume they sold, this is nothing. There is just no demand for motion kits.
    Now, for DD wheel, it is hot product, so the margin profit for the controller they developed could be way higher due to demand. If you can develop a control board for DD, then you will be in business. The OSW kit has no own control board. One had to buy off from existing boards and put them together with someone's SW. Some ones effort on developed SW is not priced in. The existing boards' profit margin limited in other band of market value. Well, we will see how the EC DD wheel price. I will guess between OSW and Bnodar.
     
  14. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    Yeah, so i can understand and appreciate the price for the AF.
     
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  15. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    I'm suprised that so many people are saying that the bigger OSW motors are better than the small ones. I originally thought the same thing (only looked at torque) but then I kept hearing about all this resistance/inertia stuff and how it's very important as well (I think for quicker initial reaction/response and initial acceleration which also has the knock-on effect of providing more clarity and detail???).

    If I recall correctly, the big MiGe (30 Nm) is rated in the low-to-mid 2s (can't remember the units) - let's say 2.25 - while the smaller MiGe (20 Nm) is rated superiorly in the mid-to-high 1s - let's say 1.75 (the Lenze is around 0.75 or so but let's ignore the much more expensive Lenze for now).

    So, is all that stuff about the resistance/inertia rating also being very important (for simwheels) - rather than just torque ratings - just bogus then???

    I'm extremely curious because I thought an over-amped small MiGe would be far superior to the big MiGe due to the small MiGe's ability to reach or get close to the bigger MiGe's 30 Nm while also benefitting from the smaller MiGe's superior resistance/inertia (1.8-ish VS the larger MiGe's 2.3-ish). Therefore an over-amped small MiGe would be capable of the best of both worlds - torque of the big MiGe, inertia-resistance of the small MiGe...

    Thoughts?


    P.S. It really sucks that the video review was not of either the MiGe motors which are, by far, the most common motors. Or at the very least the Lenze.
     
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  16. metalnwood

    metalnwood Registered

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    Just one thing, neither the OSW or the AF will lose torque at rotation as we are talking about rotation speeds in a DD FFB wheel well below where the torque curve will drop.

    Berney has said that he prices the DIY stuff more expensive because they end up having more support required. Having said that, he has also said that they can price DIY stuff cheaper because it requires very little support from the buyers.

    He has said each depending on the context of the conversation and what suits so it's anyones guess how it is priced. I figure it's priced like everything else. How much can I charge?
     
  17. Joe

    Joe Registered

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    The rotor inertia (Rotational Inertia) comparing with the wheel inertia is small, though. I would not worry about this if I were you. When you put your heavy wheel on, you probably would not notice much difference between two motors.
    the rotor inertia of small MiGe is 19.4 kgcm2 while the bigger one is 27.7 kgcm2 (your weel inertia >> that I think).
     
  18. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    some actually like the added intertia apparently that's present in the servos with wider shafts & windings , although the differences are very subtle

    remember that a slightly lower response times (when comparing one to another) on this level
    are figures that are still incredibly high

    a high grade servo system has BAGS of performance head room for our application
    eg if a sim kept advancing its ffb feed to the beyond the point that people with lower end wheels
    ( AF / fanatic / thrust master etc ) a high end servo would be delivery these features
    ( & still have head room )

    for the application of sim racing comparing one (true) servo motor to another as part of a complete industrial grade servo system ( eg OSW bodnar EC sim system )
    I doubt quality wise will differ that much, someone tuned into one servo motor should notice subtle differences but I doubt there would be clarity/quality/cloaking issues even with the non branded (or uncommon named Chinese) cheaper servo motors

    for sim racing a servo system (high grade industrial etc) is in a semi state of retirement lol


    I'm currently planning an OSW build for this winter, I'll compare it to my bodnar system & keep which ever I prefer ( I'm designing a custom enclosure specifically for it)

    re. the AF I never disputed the fact that it wasn't a great wheel just simply not in the category performance wise as the servo systems no firmware/forum claims/marketing/hype review claims could change this

    it never will be in its current hardware state , nice that some are starting to realise this now funny how it takes a bloody YouTube review to bring this home
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 3, 2015
  19. traind

    traind Registered

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    it really does come down to how much can you charge. pricing can be a very complicated and challenging strategic decision for a business particularly a small business. I find it funny how everyone talks about profit margin from the AFwheel as if there were no salaries or healthcare or overhead costs in running a business. or taxes lol.



    Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2
     
  20. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    a rough guesstimate is the actual raw component cost is about 40% of the retail sell

    the other 60% is for development , after sales service, overheads & hopefully some meaty profit

    same with most things we buy, the OSW is an exception & offers a very high value solution
    ( some have got confused as they have compared it to hardware of the same cost)
     

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