What and how much does one can feel from FFB on the steering wheel in rFactor 2

HI:

I pulled the telemetry data and did correlation coefficient calculations between FFB and following so you will see exactly what and how much you can feel from FFB on the steering wheel.
I drove the Nissan GT-R GT1 on Silverstone for about 2 laps (factory default settings, with all assists off except for clutch set to Auto). I was not driving at "limit", but rather I tried to drive in various ways, in which both grip and non-grip states (sliding, slipping and spin off), and bounced on side way are included.
I got over 27000 data points, in about 4 min run. So the interval is about 10ms (rF2 update rate is about 100Hz) I think. Here are the results (note: 1.00 means 100% correlated; 0.50 means 50% correlated, 0.00 means 0% correlated. +/- means positive/negative correlated, respectively:


EngineRPM 0.05
UnfilteredSteering -0.39
Front3rdDeflection 0.06
FrontDownforce 0.06
FrontRideHeight -0.04
FrontWingHeight -0.01
LocalAccelX 0.84
LocalAccelY 0.01
LocalAccelZ 0.00
LocalRotX 0.02
LocalRotY -0.72
LocalRotZ 0.10
LocalRotAccelX -0.03
LocalRotAccelY -0.08
LocalRotAccelZ 0.05
LocalVelX -0.53
LocalVelY -0.03
LocalVelZ -0.03
Ori0x 0.03
Ori0y -0.27
Ori0z 0.18
Ori1x 0.29
Ori1y 0.04
Ori1z 0.11
Ori2x -0.18
Ori2y -0.13
Ori2z 0.03
PosX 0.12
PosY 0.09
PosZ -0.03
Rear3rdDeflection 0.06
RearDownForce 0.06
RearRideHeight -0.05
SteeringShaftTorque 0.90
TurboBoostPressure 0.05
LF_GripFract 0.11
LF_LateralForce 0.77
LF_LateralGroundVel -0.59
LF_LateralPatchVel -0.59
LF_LongitudinalForce -0.04
LF_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.02
LF_LongitudinalPatchVel 0.07
LF_Pressure -0.02
LF_RideHeight 0.55
LF_Rotation -0.02
LF_SuspensionDeflection -0.60
LF_SuspensionForce -0.73
LF_TireLoad -0.74
LF_Toe -0.38
LF_VerticalTireDeflection -0.74
LF_WheelYLocation -0.61
RF_GripFract 0.16
RF_LateralForce 0.75
RF_LateralGroundVel -0.60
RF_LateralPatchVel -0.60
RF_LongitudinalForce -0.01
RF_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.05
RF_LongitudinalPatchVel 0.05
RF_RideHeight -0.60
RF_Rotation -0.07
RF_SuspensionDeflection 0.62
RF_SuspensionForce 0.72
RF_TireLoad 0.73
RF_Toe -0.38
RF_VerticalTireDeflection 0.73
RF_WheelYLocation 0.63
LR_GripFract 0.05
LR_LateralForce 0.77
LR_LateralGroundVel -0.61
LR_LateralPatchVel -0.61
LR_LongitudinalForce 0.02
LR_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.02
LR_LongitudinalPatchVel 0.08
LR_RideHeight 0.48
LR_Rotation -0.02
LR_SuspensionDeflection -0.52
LR_SuspensionForce -0.59
LR_TireLoad -0.65
LR_Toe -0.13
LR_VerticalTireDeflection -0.65
LR_WheelYLocation -0.52
RR_GripFract 0.28
RR_LateralForce 0.78
RR_LateralGroundVel -0.61
RR_LateralPatchVel -0.61
RR_LongitudinalForce 0.07
RR_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.05
RR_LongitudinalPatchVel -0.16
RR_Pressure -0.02
RR_RideHeight -0.53
RR_Rotation -0.04
RR_SuspensionDeflection 0.58
RR_SuspensionForce 0.64
RR_TireLoad 0.69
RR_Toe -0.19
RR_VerticalTireDeflection 0.69
RR_WheelYLocation 0.58

Sort results: (highest to lowest):

SteeringShaftTorque 0.90
LocalAccelX 0.84
RR_LateralForce 0.78
LR_LateralForce 0.77
LF_LateralForce 0.77
RF_LateralForce 0.75
LF_TireLoad -0.74
LF_VerticalTireDeflection -0.74
LF_SuspensionForce -0.73
RF_TireLoad 0.73
RF_VerticalTireDeflection 0.73
RF_SuspensionForce 0.72
LocalRotY -0.72
RR_TireLoad 0.69
RR_VerticalTireDeflection 0.69
LR_TireLoad -0.65
LR_VerticalTireDeflection -0.65
RR_SuspensionForce 0.64
RF_WheelYLocation 0.63
RF_SuspensionDeflection 0.62
LF_WheelYLocation -0.61
RR_LateralGroundVel -0.61
RR_LateralPatchVel -0.61
LR_LateralGroundVel -0.61
LR_LateralPatchVel -0.61
LF_SuspensionDeflection -0.60
RF_RideHeight -0.60
RF_LateralGroundVel -0.60
RF_LateralPatchVel -0.60
LF_LateralGroundVel -0.59
LF_LateralPatchVel -0.59
LR_SuspensionForce -0.59
RR_SuspensionDeflection 0.58
RR_WheelYLocation 0.58
LF_RideHeight 0.55
LocalVelX -0.53
RR_RideHeight -0.53
LR_WheelYLocation -0.52
LR_SuspensionDeflection -0.52
LR_RideHeight 0.48
UnfilteredSteering -0.39
RF_Toe -0.38
LF_Toe -0.38
Ori1x 0.29
RR_GripFract 0.28
Ori0y -0.27
RR_Toe -0.19
Ori0z 0.18
Ori2x -0.18
RF_GripFract 0.16
RR_LongitudinalPatchVel -0.16
Ori2y -0.13
LR_Toe -0.13
PosX 0.12
Ori1z 0.11
LF_GripFract 0.11
LocalRotZ 0.10
PosY 0.09
LR_LongitudinalPatchVel 0.08
LocalRotAccelY -0.08
LF_LongitudinalPatchVel 0.07
RR_LongitudinalForce 0.07
RF_Rotation -0.07
Front3rdDeflection 0.06
RearDownForce 0.06
Rear3rdDeflection 0.06
FrontDownforce 0.06
LR_GripFract 0.05
TurboBoostPressure 0.05
RF_LongitudinalPatchVel 0.05
EngineRPM 0.05
RearRideHeight -0.05
LocalRotAccelZ 0.05
RF_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.05
RR_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.05
Ori1y 0.04
RR_Rotation -0.04
LF_LongitudinalForce -0.04
FrontRideHeight -0.04
LocalVelZ -0.03
LocalRotAccelX -0.03
Ori2z 0.03
Ori0x 0.03
PosZ -0.03
LocalVelY -0.03
RR_Pressure -0.02
LocalRotX 0.02
LR_Rotation -0.02
LF_Pressure -0.02
LR_LongitudinalForce 0.02
LR_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.02
LF_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.02
LF_Rotation -0.02
LocalAccelY 0.01
FrontWingHeight -0.01
RF_LongitudinalForce -0.01
LocalAccelZ 0.00

 

you should get out more !!!!!!!

 

Here are more complete. I could not find the "Slip angle". I was told that they no longer use "slip angle" since implemented the "Thermodynamics tyre model" in rF2.
The FFB is as single input to our brain. No one can actually distinguish all by a sole feel of FFB. We do need other inputs such as visual, audio, feet action, etc to our brain. Although, top of list are strongly correlated, but brain learning is very complex process so that somehow we might be able to train to feel some of them individually in a remarkably detail fashion(??)

SteeringShaftTorque 0.90
LocalAccelX (lateral-g) 0.84
RR_LateralForce 0.78
LR_LateralForce 0.77
LF_LateralForce 0.77
RF_LateralForce 0.75
LF_TireLoad -0.74
LF_VerticalTireDeflection -0.74
LF_SuspensionForce -0.73
RF_TireLoad 0.73
RF_VerticalTireDeflection 0.73
RF_SuspensionForce 0.72
LocalRotY (roll) -0.72
RR_TireLoad 0.69
RR_VerticalTireDeflection 0.69
LR_TireLoad -0.65
LR_VerticalTireDeflection -0.65
RR_SuspensionForce 0.64
RF_WheelYLocation 0.63
RF_SuspensionDeflection 0.62
LF_WheelYLocation -0.61
RR_LateralGroundVel -0.61
RR_LateralPatchVel -0.61
LR_LateralGroundVel -0.61
LR_LateralPatchVel -0.61
LF_SuspensionDeflection -0.60
RF_RideHeight -0.60
RF_LateralGroundVel -0.60
RF_LateralPatchVel -0.60
LF_LateralGroundVel -0.59
LF_LateralPatchVel -0.59
LR_SuspensionForce -0.59
RR_SuspensionDeflection 0.58
RR_WheelYLocation 0.58
LF_RideHeight 0.55
LocalVelX -0.53
RR_RideHeight -0.53
LR_WheelYLocation -0.52
LR_SuspensionDeflection -0.52
LR_RideHeight 0.48
FilteredSteering -0.39
UnfilteredSteering -0.39
RF_Toe -0.38
LF_Toe -0.38
Ori1x 0.29
RR_GripFract 0.28
Ori0y -0.27
RR_Toe -0.19
Ori0z 0.18
Ori2x -0.18
UnfilteredClutch -0.16
RF_GripFract 0.16
RR_LongitudinalPatchVel -0.16
Ori2y -0.13
LR_Toe -0.13
PosX 0.12
LF_SurfaceType 0.12
Ori1z 0.11
LF_GripFract 0.11
LR_SurfaceType 0.11
LocalRotZ (Yaw) 0.10
PosY 0.09
LR_LongitudinalPatchVel 0.08
LocalRotAccelY -0.08
LF_LongitudinalPatchVel 0.07
RR_LongitudinalForce 0.07
RF_Rotation -0.07
Front3rdDeflection 0.06
UnfilteredThrottle -0.06
RearDownForce 0.06
Rear3rdDeflection 0.06
FrontDownforce 0.06
EngineTorque -0.05
FilteredThrottle -0.05
LR_GripFract 0.05
EngineMaxRPM 0.05
TurboBoostPressure 0.05
RF_LongitudinalPatchVel 0.05
EngineRPM 0.05
RearRideHeight -0.05
LocalRotAccelZ 0.05
RF_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.05
RR_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.05
RR_Wear 0.04
Ori1y 0.04
RR_Rotation -0.04
LF_LongitudinalForce -0.04
FrontRideHeight -0.04
LF_BrakeTemp -0.04
RF_Wear 0.04
ClutchRPM 0.03
LocalVelZ -0.03
LocalRotAccelX -0.03
Ori2z 0.03
Ori0x 0.03
LR_BrakeTemp -0.03
RF_Pressure -0.03
LR_BrakePressure -0.03
RR_BrakePressure -0.03
FilteredBrake -0.03
UnfilteredBrake -0.03
LF_BrakePressure -0.03
RF_BrakePressure -0.03
PosZ -0.03
RR_SurfaceType 0.03
LR_Wear 0.03
LocalVelY -0.03
Gear -0.02
RR_Pressure -0.02
RR_BrakeTemp -0.02
LocalRotX (Pitch) 0.02
LR_Rotation -0.02
LF_Pressure -0.02
LR_LongitudinalForce 0.02
LR_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.02
LF_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.02
LF_Rotation -0.02
LR_Pressure -0.01
RF_BrakeTemp -0.01
FilteredClutch 0.01
LocalAccelY (log-g) 0.01
Fuel 0.01
FrontWingHeight -0.01
RF_LongitudinalForce -0.01
EngineWaterTemp -0.01
LocalAccelZ (vertical) 0.00
RF_SurfaceType 0.00
LF_Wear 0.00
RearBrakeBias 0.00
LapStartET 0.00


For motion rig, like 2DoF simulator, while cornering the seat can roll left or right depends on the lateral-g value (LocalAccelX), which gives a driver very sensational feel. Here are the correlations between LocalAccelX (lateral-g) and following:

LR_LateralForce 0.94
RR_LateralForce 0.93
LF_LateralForce 0.92
RF_TireLoad 0.90
RF_VerticalTireDeflection 0.90
RF_SuspensionForce 0.89
RF_LateralForce 0.89
LF_TireLoad -0.88
LF_VerticalTireDeflection -0.88
LF_SuspensionForce -0.86
LocalRotY -0.86
LF_LateralGroundVel -0.86
LF_LateralPatchVel -0.86
RF_LateralGroundVel -0.85
RF_LateralPatchVel -0.85
FFB 0.84
RR_TireLoad 0.82
RR_VerticalTireDeflection 0.82
SteeringShaftTorque 0.80
RF_WheelYLocation 0.79
LR_TireLoad -0.78
LR_VerticalTireDeflection -0.78
RF_SuspensionDeflection 0.78
RF_RideHeight -0.77
RR_SuspensionForce 0.75
RR_LateralGroundVel -0.74
RR_LateralPatchVel -0.74
LR_LateralPatchVel -0.73
LR_LateralGroundVel -0.73
LF_WheelYLocation -0.73
LR_SuspensionForce -0.71
LF_SuspensionDeflection -0.70
RR_SuspensionDeflection 0.69
RR_WheelYLocation 0.69
LR_SuspensionDeflection -0.64
LR_WheelYLocation -0.64
LF_RideHeight 0.63
LocalVelX -0.63
FilteredSteering -0.63
UnfilteredSteering -0.63
RF_Toe -0.63
LF_Toe -0.63
RR_RideHeight -0.61
LR_RideHeight 0.59
RR_GripFract 0.32
Ori1x 0.27
Ori0y -0.23
RF_GripFract 0.22
RR_LongitudinalPatchVel -0.20
RR_Toe -0.20
LF_GripFract 0.17
UnfilteredClutch -0.14
LR_Toe -0.13
PosX 0.12
LR_SurfaceType 0.11
Front3rdDeflection 0.11
Ori0z 0.10
Ori2x -0.10
FrontRideHeight -0.10
LF_SurfaceType 0.10
RF_Rotation -0.10
Ori2y -0.09
RearDownForce 0.09
FrontDownforce 0.09
RR_LongitudinalForce 0.09
Ori1z 0.09
EngineMaxRPM 0.08
TurboBoostPressure 0.08
LR_GripFract 0.08
FrontWingHeight -0.08
PosY 0.08
RF_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.08
RR_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.07
RF_Pressure -0.07
EngineRPM 0.06
LocalAccelZ 0.06
RR_Rotation -0.06
RR_Wear 0.06
LocalVelZ -0.06
RR_Pressure -0.06
Ori1y 0.05
Rear3rdDeflection 0.05
LocalRotAccelY 0.05
LF_Pressure -0.05
LR_Pressure -0.05
ClutchRPM 0.04
RF_LongitudinalForce 0.04
RF_Wear 0.04
EngineTorque -0.04
LR_LongitudinalPatchVel 0.04
LR_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.04
Ori2z 0.04
Ori0x 0.04
LR_Wear 0.04
LF_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.04
LR_Rotation -0.04
FilteredThrottle -0.04
UnfilteredThrottle -0.04
Fuel 0.04
RF_LongitudinalPatchVel 0.03
RearRideHeight -0.03
LR_LongitudinalForce 0.03
LF_Rotation -0.03
LocalRotX 0.03
LF_BrakeTemp -0.03
LocalAccelY 0.03
RF_SurfaceType 0.02
RR_SurfaceType 0.02
LF_Wear 0.02
LR_BrakeTemp -0.02
LocalRotZ -0.02
EngineWaterTemp -0.02
LocalRotAccelZ -0.02
Gear -0.02
LocalVelY -0.01
RR_BrakeTemp -0.01
LocalRotAccelX -0.01
FilteredClutch 0.01
PosZ 0.01
LF_LongitudinalPatchVel -0.01
RF_BrakeTemp -0.01
LF_BrakePressure 0.00
RF_BrakePressure 0.00
LR_BrakePressure 0.00
RR_BrakePressure 0.00
FilteredBrake 0.00
UnfilteredBrake 0.00
LF_LongitudinalForce 0.00
LapStartET 0.00
RearBrakeBias 0.00

 

To be honest, I have no idea of what are you trying to say with all those channels. What you feel from the FFB is basically the SteeringShaftTorque channel.

 

The correlation between FFB and SteeringShaftTorque is 90%. The calculated value of SteeringShaftTorque is based on function of all others. As I learned from this forum, some of hardcore racers (most of them using stationery rig I think) had been training with very sensitive to FFB on steering wheel. It would be pretty bored if one’s brain maps FFB feel to SteeringShaftTorque only. I know they don’t. Of course this is very interesting open question, indeed. Check Spinelli’s posts. He can feel all sort of “physics” through FFB. The main reason I pulled those results was in fact that he said he could feel RPM through FFB in rF1, though I doubted on this. In rF2, I now know this is not possible (it is only 5% correlation with FFB).

 

And where is the other 10%? If I recall correctly TechAde shown that the SteeringShaftTorque matched 1:1 with the FFB signal.

Speaking about telemetry channels, having the tire slip angles would be a pretty cool thing, ISI

 

The csv file I got from TechAde's plugin, shown others with errors while calculating correlations:

AntiStallActive #DIV/0!
Drag #DIV/0!
EngineOilTemp #DIV/0!
FrontFlapActivated #DIV/0!
FrontTireCompoundIndex #DIV/0!
FrontTireCompoundName #DIV/0!
FuelCapacity #DIV/0!
Headlights #DIV/0!
IgnitionStarter #DIV/0!
LapNumber #DIV/0!
LastImpactET #DIV/0!
LastImpactMagnitude #DIV/0!
LastImpactPosX #DIV/0!
LastImpactPosY #DIV/0!
LastImpactPosZ #DIV/0!
MaxGears #DIV/0!
Overheating #DIV/0!
RearFlapActivated #DIV/0!
RearFlapLegalStatus #DIV/0!
RearTireCompoundIndex #DIV/0!
RearTireCompoundName #DIV/0!
ScheduledStops #DIV/0!
SpeedLimiter #DIV/0!
LF_Camber #DIV/0!
LF_Detached #DIV/0!
LF_Flat #DIV/0!
LF_Temperature #DIV/0!
LF_TerrainName #DIV/0!
RF_Camber #DIV/0!
RF_Detached #DIV/0!
RF_Flat #DIV/0!
RF_Temperature #DIV/0!
RF_TerrainName #DIV/0!
LR_Camber #DIV/0!
LR_Detached #DIV/0!
LR_Flat #DIV/0!
LR_Temperature #DIV/0!
LR_TerrainName #DIV/0!
RR_Camber #DIV/0!
RR_Detached #DIV/0!
RR_Flat #DIV/0!
RR_Temperature #DIV/0!
RR_TerrainName #DIV/0!

Conceptually, yes. But in their new tyre model, there is no such concept any more.

 

Sure didn't know there was that much ffb output, but for me personally, I have not ever been able to recognize any actual output from the rear.

Sent from my SGH-i937 using Tapatalk

 

It is possible to make tyre testings in their tyre editor and put the tyre into different slip angles, so I am sure this is generated by the game. Another thing is if they dont want to show those channels.

 

I never used the tyre tool. I do not know. Yes, I think it is possible. Just use the LateralVel vs LongitudinalVel to calculate the slip angle for each tire. But, the LateralVel are about 60% correlated with FFB, one shall be able to train to feel tires' sliding through FFB (of course, combine with visual and audio inputs).

RR_LateralGroundVel -0.61
RR_LateralPatchVel -0.61
LR_LateralGroundVel -0.61
LR_LateralPatchVel -0.61
RF_LateralGroundVel -0.60
RF_LateralPatchVel -0.60
LF_LateralGroundVel -0.59
LF_LateralPatchVel -0.59

RF_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.08
RR_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.07
LR_LongitudinalPatchVel 0.04
LR_LongitudinalGroundVel -0.04
....
....

 

I have no idea about how to calculate slip angles

 

the "slip angle" = inverse of tangent(LateralVel / LongitudinalVel). However, it seems to me that the FFB has no correlation with LongitudinalVel. Hence, one just cannot feel "slip angle" per sa. But one shall bel able to feel tire's sliding and slip (LateralVel) through FFB in rF2, while the GripFract drops.

 

Which one? Ground velocity or Patch velocity?

 

The felt pressure ratio on the wheels is too low, therefore, you shall feel no variation in slip angle in the main relationship with the longitudinal forces on tires only on the steering shaft torque. As the tire surface/patch treated this in detail in conjunction with the transmitted ffb signal, no idea, but variable load, such as vertical moving mass plays a major role, and in my opinion, as perceived this is a weakness of rf2 steering feeling in general atm.

 

Reality is another story, you can't feel the slip angle in the reality as well, but for a simulator, maybe it is more important to feel the steering angle while using the slip angle as a indicator for turning degrees on the steering wheel.

 

Per the data I have, it suggests that in rF2, one may feel "slip" but not "angle", through FFB of your wheel.

 

Yes as it is in the reality as well, but the reality is more accurate in the load changes on the steering wheel which probably leads to a more precise control of the vehicle but rf2 is spongy on the steering wheel, especially when it begins to slip. It loses all of it is accuracy, because in my opinion the felt vertical pressure on the wheels is too low, thus the felt directional stability suffers from as well and the tires feel at times like pudding. I'm looking forward to the new tire patch.

 

Because both steering FFB and steering angle have no correlation with LongitudinalVel, one just cannot feel "slip angle" no matter how much feel of LateralVel maybe. The feel of LongitudinalVel from Visual. So brain will combine all include Visual and audio (tire sound) to sense sort of "slip angle".
Classically, one will think that there is defined "max slip angle", above which is slip angle larger than, the car will slide (sliding state). But in this new tire model, they don't. I guess this is ISI Black art: how do define a critical state where the car starts to sliding. My speculation on this maybe the "GripFract". There is a mim/critical GripFract, below which the car will slide (transitioning from grip state to a sliding state).

 

well ?? no wonder i cant drive this game ?????

 

I'm not sure why you doubt this. A quick google will show thousands of posts from the last 8 years about this. Not to mention I have been playing and editing rF1 FFB for 8 years. There's thousands of posts all about these sort of FFB effects in pre-rF2 ISI engine based sims. You can even find tons of posts of people specifically advising people to disable this FFB by not running the FFB at "full".

If that's still not enough proof, then just download the demo for rFactor 1, Game Stock Car, Formula Truck, GTR, GTR 2, GT Legends, Race 07, etc. etc. and find out for yourself.

I don't understand why you're so skeptical. The game transmits a certain frequency (and strength) of vibration FFB according to a certain rpms. I don't understand what is so difficult to believe about this, again, there are thousands of posts going back probably over 10 years (ISI F1 sim days) about all this stuff.

Pre-rF2 ISI engine based sims made the FFB do certain things depending on a whole bunch of things that the car was doing. You could change how much into a slide the FFB drops off, at what rate it drops off, how much of the force of the steering resistance is based on grip, what percentage of FFB is from the front tyres compared to the back, you can add in vibrations which change the harder you press your brake pedal if you want, you can make shifts shudder through the FFB, etc. etc. It's all tunable. Lots of people consider this "canned" or "fake" FFB because it is not being generated by the steering arm/rack, but it is still being generated according to physics and depending on how you have all the FFB settings setup to transmit different physics to your FFB.