Is rf2 too difficult? [lack of online players / leagues struggling]

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Denstjiro, Apr 5, 2014.

  1. rogue22

    rogue22 Registered

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    Just my own opinion but, If you drop a sim because your trying to force them to move into a new sim, you will lose members as they flock to another league or will simply create one of there own (the reason why GPL and Nascar racing 2003 is still alive), and the reason most people stick to those old sims is because they were given to us in one package not in sections and updates and releases. Now don't get me wrong I personally enjoy on going development, I think its easier for us to key in what we would like to see and they are indeed listening to us, and its turning these next gen simulations into something I never imagined 20 years ago.

    But you have to understand not everyone feels this way, I race at R2P exclusively now and the biggest response I get when I try to talk a lot of my fellow racers into trying out AC or rfactor 2, "I wait till its fully released."
    A lot of us old sim racers stick to what we know and are used to using a fully released product. I think its just going to take some time to get used to these sectional releases.
    I've been sim racing for a long time and I support AC and Rfactor 2 fully, but a lot of the guys I've been racing with the past 20 years usually say "I'll just wait till its fully released" or "I'll wait for the main build". At the very least some need to upgrade there PCs, which as far as using your PC for sim racing, its relatively cheap compared to what it was 10 or 20 years ago. I think we spend more on wheels, pedals, and cockpits, than we do the actual PC.

    They don't want to deal with constant build updates, waiting for new cars, waiting for new tracks. Nothing wrong with a few updates here and there to fix a few issues or release some content but to a lot of people its a major annoyance. It doesn't bother me one bit but to a large majority of our niche, we just aren't quite used to the way a racing simulation is released now.

    Back in the day a sim came out, you drove it loved it found and issue with it write to the developer only to get the "development has been move to other products" response, and you just took it on the chin, and learned to deal with the bugs, or hope some truly dedicated member fixes the problems with an unofficial patch. A lot of us, which makes up for quite a bit of community are still stuck in old ways. On a positive note, I'm seeing RF2 get used a lot more now than it was a year ago at my league so its growing, just not as fast as everyone hoped.

    In the end though, I'd rather have a slow moving development cycle with a lot more soul put into the sim, than a rush product just to meet the masses.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2014
  2. Galaga

    Galaga Banned

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    No sweat, man. Just call'n it like I see it. Not out to change anyone's mind about anything. I sincerely hope you get what you are looking for. No hard feelings...
     
  3. Murtaya

    Murtaya Registered

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    I don't think that it's "hard", it's a really good sim so it's about as hard as real motorsport. What is hard is getting it setup so sweetly that a normal driver can get in and quickly forget it's a sim. It's possible but it takes a lot of effort and it certainly doesn't come setup "out of the box" like that. We all know it can't. This is where the compromises in other software happen that lead to more people getting on with them straight away even though they are clearly inferior (once you have experienced rF2 setup even close to right).

    So everyone's right or wrong or whatever, don't fight. You just have to nurse new people into the goodness. Still learning new things about it everyday, thanks to all the posters. I read your server thread yesterday Denstjiro, and I have got one setup thanks to time and effort you put in. I wouldn't have managed it without. Now if I could just work out why it always takes exactly 21 seconds for the join button to go live I could go to bed happy.
     
  4. Empty Box

    Empty Box Registered

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    Kill 'em all! Right? Right? okay. Let's just bury our heads in the sand, there is no problem. :rolleyes:

    Anyways... Large post inbound. ere you go Tim. Here you go other people making videos. :cool:

    It was talked about a bit earlier in this thread so I'll chime in - as one of those guys on youtube, I've done a few rF2 videos. I've gotten enough info to gauge the general feel of the masses between that and my other videos. I'm fully in agreement that YT is a major key to any sim in the future gaining a wider audience, it's "free" marketing, and none of these developers in the sim racing genre really has enough money to go on a major marketing campaign. I'll hit on that angle here first. Let me wear my youtube hat right now. I'll put on my sim racer hat in a bit.

    I don't want to sound like I'm tooting my own horn but it will inevitably will, but the viewer has to be told "why this isn't Gran Turismo / Forza / F1 201X" and the question of "why should I be interested in this game I've never heard of". No offense ISI, but a 30 second clip of the Panoz Roadster doing donuts in slow mo isn't doing that. Personally, I think that is why I have done better than most other sim racing only youtube channels, my goal has always been to tell people who don't even know what they are watching why what they are watching is different from what they already know. This thread and the comments on it are hilarious - Gran Turismo / Forza / F1 201X are not our enemy, they are their gateway drug to what WE love. Remember that line, repeat it, love it, live it, enjoy it, don't be stupid. And for the love of all that is holy, stop screaming "It's not a video game, it's a hobby, it's more than a game, it's a sim!"

    I ask the question though : the best way to show people how different sim racing is is by demonstrating the racing. Do you guys not realize how many Gran Turismo / Forza / F1 201X would like to be able to consistently get into great races? Be able to race with damage, without fear of that one guy online? Youtube rFactor 2, and remember, these are the videos likely to come up in the related cases when eventually youtube decides a Gran Turismo / Forza / F1 201X viewer is ready for something different.

    I'll save you time.
    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rFactor+2
    I'll save you more time. Jimmy Broadbent's minireview of rF2 that is - as many rF2 reviews - is "this is so good, and so bad" more or less, a couple of my videos against spotty AI, Barnacules doing what he does demonstrating nothing but providing entertainment, a couple of videos from waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the development timeline, a couple test drives, several other AI races and one - I repeat ONE - race against other people, online. It also is from the days where the audio levels were jacked up.



    It's a mess and a half, that eventually develops into some decent racing. But again, why would I buy that? This is not an attack on the guy who made the video, but - take a look at the quality of racing as a whole until things settled down. Yes, it's typical open server, but that is not a good thing. That is not reflecting well for rF2, but sadly it is largely what rF2 is outside the bugs and improvements that have since taken place. The racing is eventually good, but to get to that is so unbelievably poor - why wouldn't they stick to Gran Turismo / Forza / F1 201X? This video is precisely what rF2 is, and for that it is brilliant. He was not wrong to post the video, I have no problem with this video, but the fact the quality of racing is literally that bad - and consistently too - is why rF2 is dead. Mind you, this is one of the most viewed rF2 vids out there. When you couple with the very little evidence to the contrary, wouldn't I think every race is like this?

    When there is literally one online race against people, and it has this level of driving (the guy who made the video can drive, the others who end up in the video not so much), there is no reason for me to take you as a serious racing game. These driving standards don't reflect poorly on the guy who made the video, but rather the rFactor 2 community as a whole. Aimed straight at the people who can't drive : learn to drive, you make us look like a joke.

    This is where those leagues out there come in to play. Where are you guys? Where is the top notch high quality exciting to watch racing? This needs to be uploaded on a frequent, fairly consistent basis, not a once a millennia basis. Get people excited, get them involved, get them to care, tell them why they should care, why it's different, the things you do that in those console games aren't important. Make them understand the depth. A good sim racing video on youtube IMHO isn't just some guy driving in a race, it doesn't fully relay the dynamic and the things you are doing. Okay, I'm slightly biased in that regard as almost all of my videos are live commentated specifically to relay those things, but I believe it to be the truth. When are you taking care of the tires? When are you pushing? What car adjustments are you making? Why are you doing that?

    Okay, now I'm taking the youtube hat off and putting the sim racer hat on.

    First, the excuse of it's too hardcore is an excuse for poor design, decisions and a lack of a meaningful learning system. A large portion of that is down to poor implementation, particularly real road which is turbo accelerated on top of not set on a slider that is easily controlled. 20% rubber is more understandable than "Preset : Light Rubber". Poor UI. A mod system that originally was so backasswards they had to rework it post launch. A server browser that doesn't relay the information needed well enough, such as time remaining. An online system that requires me to download a track that is not being raced, that I probably dont want, but yet it still does anyways. No features that really are aimed at helping people understand things. Tying this point to the previous "hat" - why not make the driver's guides things into youtube videos? (still baffled by people not understanding why the Panoz has the gearbox setup the way it is... - on a minor level)

    Second, the quality of racing in open servers is poor and spotty. Sure that is not rFactor 2's fault, but it is what it is. If you are a turn one idiot, you are directly responsible for rFactor 2 having the online player count it does.

    Third, the netcode is beyond poor. Usually when I try and race online, I pop in for a moment, see cars warping around, pings over 200ms as the low end and then precisely say "screw that." Add those last two together. Why would I bother?

    Fourth, there are way too many servers, and way too few of them are populated. As a whole, I think the community would be better off if we all agreed something like "Friday is F3 day, Saturday is Civics only" or something like that. A community wide league type of thing.

    Fifth, no meaningful schedule. These servers NEED to get on a schedule. There is no reason I shouldn't be able to look at a clock and know that there is a race starting in a couple of minutes if I would like. A simple hourly (or half hour) practice / qualy / race format would be fantastic. ":15 past the hour, oh look, I have 5 minutes of practice and 10 minutes of qualifying before 30 minutes of racing, better get going" Some will argue, but more consistent races at rF2's player base size can only bring good things.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2014
  5. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Post deleted, I didn't realise the bracket part in the thread title pertaining to online / league racing (thought it was about physics / driving)
     
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  6. Luis Armstrong

    Luis Armstrong Banned

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    There is something wrong with your audio.
     
  7. Empty Box

    Empty Box Registered

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    Not my video, it was from when rF2 had serious audio issues.
     
  8. Luis Armstrong

    Luis Armstrong Banned

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    I have that when enhance my audio device trhoough windows
     
  9. TIG_green

    TIG_green Registered

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    Good post Empty Box. After 1:30 in that video the racing wasn't that bad :p Haven't checked the current status of rf2 videos in Youtube but I hope there are never more representative videos out there.

    I've been in countless races that have had really good racing in them but I'm not a video editing guy or a simple uploader so unfortunately those races probably aren't in Youtube :(

    That said, I recognize the problems that newcomers might face. I really don't recommend jumping straight into online. I started with some offline time and I'm happy with that decision. If you compare yourself to AI or to yourself first you will get more comfortable start to your career in rf2. Accessible public races in rf2 can be quite a mess at times (usually not because of rf2 but because of the drivers). Fortunately, I've been also in many really clean and fun public races too.

    A newcomer, take your time practicing offline. You will have all the time in the world to figure out what you need to do in order to improve your driving and also no pressure to show off to anybody. If you go straight to online you have less time to learn. When you try to keep up with others without any proper experience in rf2 you will end up over driving. Just my two cents as they say.
     
  10. WiZPER

    WiZPER Registered

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    Leagues who struggle simply do not offer a concept in demand which is not allready covered.

    The league I'm running is purely focusing on endurance racing and have previously done so for five seasons using rf1 - there were a 'pause' while waiting for the platform of rf2, available content and services to get up to desired standards, and just a couple months ago it fired up for registrations.

    We ran a succesfull 2 hour test race at Sebring about a month ago and this past weekend first race of the season, 12 hours of Sebring multiclass racing - 24 entries, 2-5 drivers per car, online driverswap etc.

    We experienced only one server crash, one swap-issue (due to WIFI) and the entire event was broadcasted by GripTV.

    Ohh, and the league DOES offer all content to users by working GetMod, as Noel Hibbard is part of staff :D
     
  11. stonec

    stonec Registered

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    Most of this is easy to agree on. There are very few massive online races of rF2, most of the videos on YouTube are against AI. This is a big problem at moment, and there are many reasons behind it.

    The video is old, but as you say, driving standards are still a big problem. rF1, however, provided quite good public racing with Meganes, I did those races for several years. Reason why it's less good now is mainly the netcode as you mentioned, or more precisely the collision response. It's a problem for our league when most race starts end up in chaos, mainly because one guy's mistake ends the race of 5-6 guys due to the chaos effect from exaggerated collisions. I've been trying to push ISI for updates regarding this. We actually got an update in the form of a new online algorithm in December, but it actually made things only worse and is now disabled. I'm still not convinced ISI has acknowledged how difficult it is to host events with, say, 30 players, due to higher bandwidth demand of rF2 netcode and collision issues. The netcode was the main strength of rF1 compared to any other simulator, but it has turned into a weakness with rF2, for reasons I don't fully understand.


    It will probably be a bit difficult to implement a realroad slider, as those realroad presets (also existing ones from ISI) were made by letting AI run on the track and saving the state. But the whole realroad option should be more visible. A new user will likely not understand a menu option "Realroad: green-naturally progressing-preset" very well. Actually I think the realroad option should be visible on top of the live session menu ontrack. And let user change realroad state from the race menu live in offline events. This feature would be a lot more useful e.g. than the recently introduced "live car select" option, in my opinion.
     
  12. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    The 3 Main rF2 Online Multiplayer Fixes Needed

    Fixing these 3 issues will massively improve the rFactor 2 online experience (in no particular order):


    1. Opponent smootheness: From the way the opponent's suspension and overall car body moves, to how they seem to float above the track and make weird erratic movements like some slot car. Even on good servers with little players with low ping (best case scenario) it could still be improved quite a bit. Just look at iRacing, almost looks as good as when you are driving offline against A.I.

    2. Colission detection: Not much explaining here. Very off and pretty crazy at the moment.

    3. Joining a Session / Mod System: When I happen to have the car / all the cars being used on a server, and I also happen to have the track currently being raced on, then I should be able to join, no ifs, ands, or buts. It shouldn't matter if I don't have a track that the server MAY run on in the next race, or in a race 6 hours from now, I'm not asking to run on that track! And I may not even want to download and/or run on that track! I'm simply just trying to enter a session thst's currently using cars and a track that I completely and properly have fully installed. In 3 hours from now when the server decides to go on a track that I don't have then I can simply get mismatch booted, simple as that. This whole issue is beyond ridiculous...

    Saying "Hey you have all the correct cars and the correct track installed to enter the current session however the server has a track that you don't have on it's list of tracks that it MAY race on, so you can't join PERIOD. Even though you have 4 out of the 6 tracks installed and the server is currently using a track that you do have you still can't join because you don't have a track/tracks that the server MAY decide to eventually race on (could be next race, could be in 6 hours, could be 2 days from now)" is not the way any racing game should be doing things.

    Not to mention downloading full car and/or track mods straight from the in-game auto download thing almost never works. I understand this part isn't ISI's fault, however that's not the point, it shouldn't even have to resort to this. If you have the car and track then you shouldn't not be able to join just because the server will eventually, in the future, race on a track that you don't have. Well, what if you don't plan to stick around once they go to that track? What if you don't want to download that track?...Unbelievable.
     
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  13. Murtaya

    Murtaya Registered

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    What if there's a vote to skip to the next circuit? It might not be hours as you say, you need the circuits and the vehicles the server runs, time has nothing to do with it. Quite honestly if you want to install non ISI content then you need to be prepared to get the content yourself, or complain at the people not making the content available. Install all the ISI content and this simply isn't a problem. People warping again is a lot to do with them. The collision system is still a bit wafty but not bad if you are on a good server with people who have good pings. The pings need to be displayed in the multplayer lobby. You don't join servers that have too high a ping, if they are all high you remember you left that torrent program running and turn it off. The pings need displaying.

    Perhaps you ought to have to pass a test before you can race online, a race against default level AI with naturally progressing track and a pitsop. You have to come 1st then your online activates? Would ensure you set the thing up at least half right wouldn't it. And there needs to be a proper manual on how to set it up. Trouble is it would be quite big, might scare more than make more join. I guarantee a lot of the 1st corner crashers come straight from some unrealistic racing game, or watch F1. A lot of the people who appear to not be able to drive will have the software setup wrong, ie just about everything set to default. And thinking they have good control at stupidly low FPS.


    Dunno about the you tube videos. I personally couldn't do it. I don't enjoy speaking live at all.
     
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  14. ErnieDaOage

    ErnieDaOage Registered

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    first corner crashers are a product of racing games with a ****ty ai over the years. because the ai has mostly diffrent driving physics u can use them almost everywhere as a moving wall around a corner. and the problem with ai is still if its really good it demands a lot of power from your cpu. like in most sims i've played when u start using those ai mods u simply have to turn them down in numbers or u wouldn't get a decent expierence out of it with stutters and everything else.

    and theres simply one rule if u have a public server going u can always admin the server and kick or even ban the first corner crashers, but its still up to everybody and every community to admin their servers and public racing can still be fun. the problem is that most of those guys simply don't care for others so why should i as server admin care for them, ban selected player and the problem is gone, forever. i don't have a problem with a mouseclick on a button to solve a problem. ;) but if u join servers where nobody cares about anything yeah its the same for me as getting swimming. i can go to a public waterpark with a lot of service personal to keep everybody happy or i can go to that lake where everybody can do what he wants and theres also no lifeguard. maybe than i shouldn't get drunk and drugged and go into the water when nobody is able to pull me back out if u get what i mean. ;)
    and there are a lot of public servers out there where people care about the newcomers its up to every community to get their reputation.
     
  15. Paul_Ceglia

    Paul_Ceglia Registered

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    Good post Empty, I actually unsubscribed to you when you were dogging on rF2 a few months back but I re-subscribed soon after because you do put out good informative content on you tube. I enjoyed your post and you make many good points. You got me thinking about posting my own videos of my races because I usually have very good close fast racing in rF2. RF2 is the only sim I use atm and I have been on board the entire way. I have like many of you seen this sim progress slowly into something great, and things should only get better, right? I have only been seriously sim racing since the birth of rf2. If it wasn't for this forum I wouldn't know a damn thing about alt-M, .plr files, .ini files, all the different game options and so on. Rf2 needs a noob how to. I recommend this title to every sim racer I come across but many of them are stuck on Iracing and other titles, and when one tries rf2, they go back to the other title they where racing, (maybe because of performance and lack of players online) I don't think they understand how customizable this sim is. Some members in my the league I currently run in didn't even know about steering torque min. which is in the release notes!, not isi's fault though. I will attempt to make a NOOBs guide to rF2 on you tube, but I really don't have good presence on camera so I can't promise anything. The next time I recommend rf2 I will steer them to the video so they can get things setup right. I love this title and if it didn't exist I most likely wouldn't even be sim racing, it is the only modern sim I feel connected to.
     
  16. Denstjiro

    Denstjiro Registered

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    I like where this is going guys, very informative, lots to consider.

    I hope ISI is watching as well, there are a few things they could deal with for us, and clearly a few things we ourselves could be dealing with.
    I reckon its the same as a league or any community, its the general input everyone provides that pushes the envelop. There's still much to be done but personally i'm a bit more optimistic reading all the replies and comments.

    And sorry if I come across a bit pushy or too upfront at times, i'm Dutch. nuff said :)
     
  17. Guy Moulton

    Guy Moulton Registered

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    Another problem is "reviewers" coming out because they like to get hits on their YT page and not because they want to spread accurate information. A lot of sim racers seem to not realize that online sites often lack integrity and they get information from those sites anyway.

    Emptybox is the perfect example. A few months the ago he came out with a rf2 review that hit very wide of the mark because he doesn't understand the sim and obviously didn't put enough time and effort into it. In the comments he wrote that rf2 has the worst tire model of any current sim. This week in iracing.... err I mean sim racing is another one that has set rf2 back because they don't get it. Dear ISI: please pay Inside Sim Racing for some advertising, the show has no integrity and will accept advertising money for good reviews. Reviewers with professional integrity cannot accept ad money on products they review.

    Bad press is bad for the game. A lot of it is clueless reviews doing 3 or 4 laps and claiming the tires are garbage and the grip sucks, it's like driving on ice etc we've all heard that bull**** from day 1. Reviewers want to do a few laps, don't care about this realroad thing and be up to speed right away like they are playing with iracing or GSC. But they do love those hits on YT and they love to hear themselves make mile long posts.
     
  18. Denstjiro

    Denstjiro Registered

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    Thank you for that EB!
    I was beginning to doubt myself and contemplating if I too should just look down on everyone not 100% hardcore and devoted 24/7.

    It is indeed the gateway to simracing. today's 12 year old will develop a taste for cars, or racing on consoles.
    By the time he is 19 he is so bored of childish crap and unrealistic whatever's he will go look for something better.
    And that's when we see new users being silly on public servers.
    a year later, or 3, they are the ones setting up leagues, creating mods, whatever. we need those people.
    If its just about 'I raced GPL HurDurr' then the niche market will only go smaller and smaller until its about 5.000 90year old guys reminiscing over the good old days with tears in their eyes.

    May I remind everyone that even Gjon started out as a complete noob one day wondering what a pixel was and how to make it red instead of blue?
    And i'm pretty sure Gregger Huttu also started out with more time in gravel traps then on the tarmack.


    We did that with rf1. racing vid's, promo vids. cool stuff to display the cool stuff. even instruction video's.

    I want to do the same in rf2, some of our members are doing that. but personally I am not ready for that. I just recently fixed my skin-problem, now (after all these builds) I am finally able to see custom skins in rf2. so after all this time I am getting ready to create my own skins.
    Guess what, encountering all kinds of problems with it, and now I have to spend countless of hours no doubt figuring out what is going wrong. yuck!

    I've made one video in rf2 and the quality just sucks donkeyballs. so for that too I need to spend allot of time into figuring out.
    It will get done eventually, it always does.

    But its one of those rf2 things, once you want something, its not going to be easy.
    (oh and I don't need tips or hints about it here, that's for other topics hehe)



    and from Murtaya:
    This is something I was wondering about as well. What does rf2 do to assist new drivers?
    Pretty much nawt.

    Maybe something to contemplate for ISI (or others) , not sure if forced-offline is the way to go but at least a category in rf2 which pops up once the sim is installed about learning. some tests perhaps, braking zones, lines, basic stuff.
    And even if new users would skip it and go online right away, they soon might return and do the tests anyways, because their online experience was not really satisfactory.

    Imo its not enough to 'just' be a hardcore sim platform and screw you if you don't get it.




    I seen a few people asking for basic video tutorials, maybe that is something we can pick up ourselves. I've been doing it privately for years with members and it works really well if you explain stuff clearly. sometimes its just small issues that needed to be sorted. sometimes I regretted helping them because later on they would kick my ass on track :)
    I mean, just a video on ideal lines can already do so much for a struggling driver. a world of difference in almost every department if things start to click for a driver.

    I'll dive into that once I figure out how to get good quality in video's. meanwhile ISI should clean up the replays lol.
    And I'll give it a shot, prolly through the wiki because that's one other thing, there's plenty tutorials on the web, but never easy to find, and possible not rf2 related. getting them centralized could be a good start.
     
  19. Denstjiro

    Denstjiro Registered

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    I agree but on the other hand, content in rf2 is limited now and that means everything is pretty much covered.
    in rf1 we did the same thing, season after season in GP79. allot of people joined our league because we ended up being the only league using that mod.

    We are simply not sure yet what a good format would be, both in attendance and in what we perceive as a good format for league racing. and in trying to figure that out the options and different directions are almost impossibly varied.
    Try to figure out a successful format that will be successful...its not easy unless you already have a large userbase telling you what they want.
    and that's the problem these days. for us at least.
     
  20. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    We just did a 12 race this weekend with something like 26 teams with 2 - 4 drivers each with lots of driver swaps. After the race the general consensus was that rF2 kicks ass. Here is the broadcast from our race:
    http://www.twitch.tv/jimmy_bee/c/4016385

    The race starts at 45:20.
     

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