How much would I pay for Real Time Data Analysis Tool (MoTec equivalent)

I hope that Tim does not mind that I posted this here.

This poll is intended to help us decide if we should release our in-house data viewer tool to the sim racing community. Our current position is that we would love to release the tool, but that the time and work required to get the tool released and the support work required would mean that would we have to bring somebody onto the team just to manage the sim racing community.

Whilst we have the tool in a state that we use for real world racing, there are a few areas that need to be improved to bring the full feature set of sim racing to the application, including real time telemetry support, pit wall timing wheel analysis etc. We have the experience of F1 engineers, so we know what we should implement if we committed to this. Along with this work, we would also need to setup a web portal where users could download trial versions, a web forum where bug and features could be registered etc. These may seem like simple steps but we like to do things properly so if we are going to do it we will do it well. This means making sure that any users have full support via emails and forums etc.

So, the main question we have, is what sort of market exists for such a tool. Through the rFactor, rF2, pCars, AC forums there are a small number of users who are actively seeking a real time data analysis tool, but are there enough users that would be willing to pay for such a tool to cover the costs of supporting it?

We would like to know via this poll/forum what the feeling is regarding such a tool in a pay for use model. We are thinking that the cost of the application would have to be in the region of $15 to $20 per user per year just to cover the support costs, maybe more, and for that the application would include all the features of MoTeC (plus realtime and a whole lot more) for the main racing sims, rF, rF2, pCars, AC, Race07 etc. Of course if we have 10,000 people interested then the costs would be significantly less. Potentially we could offer a system where the tool is licensed per sim for a reduced rate, for example $10 for the tool including 1 sim, then $5 per additional sim?

Whilst we would love to release the viewer app, the costs and time to get the app out to the larger sim racing community mean that we need to invest a considerable amount of our business where there could be no return. We are not trying to make money on this, we just want to make sure we don't jeopardise our real world racing team by trying to support the viewer when we have no resource.

Your thoughts would be very much appreciated, they will help us make our decision.

 

That sounds good. I think more people (simracers) will be interested in your tool, if you provide some tips on using telemetry to improve on setups and laptimes along with the software, maybe as a newsletter for customers or something.

 

I race on an endurance team and telemetry would be very valuable to us. I started developing a plugin of my own for our use but never finished it up. It would be very nice if team mates that aren't currently driving the car would have access to realtime data. Planning pit strategy would be much easier.

Which brings up another interesting point... remote pit menu changes. I wish ISI would give us access to the pit menu from the plugin API.

 

Free! I don't understand why i need pay for these tools. :\

 

Maybe you didn't read the first post in its entirety? Here's a quote:

 

What is the problem for using motec?
We have been using that tool for years with rf1. For sure now with rf2 it doesn't work that well yet or at least I haven't been able to make it work the same way. Especially tire temperatures are crazy getting up to several hundreds of degrees when locking a wheel which spoils the analysis.

I dont see the point of making something new.

Enviado desde mi GT-I9505 usando Tapatalk 2

 

I have seen this spikes in temps with rF2. I think the tire model isnt still finished.

------

Respect to the question of the thread, this sim community are plenty of people who spent thousand of hours without any return.
Team ORSM, DRM Modding Team, HistoryX, Alpharacers Modding Team, Sim-Racing.org and many many others. Is your decision liberate your work with or without return.

 

I'd pay $15 per sim.

 

Give the user access to the raw telemetry data via an API or something for those of us writing code for data displays and make iRacing one of the other supported sims and I'd happily pay $20. rF1, rF2 and iRacing is all I need data for.

Maybe this is the kind of project that Kickstarter can be user for.

 

http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/12670-Motec-i2pro-equivalent

 

I'm too busy driving to look at telem in realtime.

 

Ok. I see. Now after years using it I get to know it was not licensed for rFactor. The problem is then that ISI and Motec people did not get an agreement or did not even try.
My wish: ISI, get an agreement with motec and properly license it or develop your own tool since you are selling a simulation tool for which telemetry is highly appreciated for setup and strategy.
My concern: they won't do it since it is cheaper and they know we will be using it anyway.

What surprises me with some software companies is the inability to properly protect their products. It is known that hackers exist since the invention of computers. It is the software companies responsibility to denounce download links of illegal content or whatever form of piracy. If almost everybody within rfactor community has motec's i2 is because they didn't do much about it.
Too bad for motec people. They get what they deserve.

I am glad I am not a software developer since during all these years they have not figured out an effective way to properly protect their intellectual property.

There are societies at national level for authors (books, music and videos mainly) that got to charge a fee when buying a CD or other storage platform. In Spain it is called SGAE. They are also literally "stealing" from any user (radios, bars and retaurants for reproducing music or even schools for theatre representations which help promoting art) and their income is not clear where is going (you probably know that corruption in my country is normal in politics class). Something similar could be done for software (without the corrrupt and abusive part of course)

Software developer's should think about future and what they will do to survive in this jungle which is the Internet. Either they get together and try to solve piracy issue or they might find themselves in a massive problem in the near future. They have the law to their side but they are unable to make it effective. Who's fault? For sure their fault. If people would get effectively punished for piracy, things would be completely different. But for that they need to take the first step which in my opinion that have not done.

Enviado desde mi GT-I9505 usando Tapatalk 2

 

Nice off-topic rant, but maybe you're forgetting Motec is a tool used by a lot of people at real tracks, and not just big teams. Having the hassle of per-machine registration, and internet access, would be a turn-off for a lot of potential customers.

If we're going to talk about what people deserve, maybe consider the fact you've been using i2Pro for years (apparently) but never noticed the bit about not using it with non-motec data? You seriously never saw that? But that's not your problem, that's Motec and ISI for not properly protecting it or for not licensing it. Get over yourself.

 

Man, you seem like a smart guy but, your posts lately are really negative for no reason, who pissed in your coffee i wonder, lol

 

I can tell you I didnt know I was doing something illegal. I used DAP plugin from the beginning since I was taught to do so when started with rfactor.

It makes no sense to me what you say about real drivers having to deal with internet. If motec hardware comes with the required software it would be normal to update it via internet. If to keep it secure you need to force people to login I don't see whre are the difficulties. If someone is mart enough to use motec for sure having to login would not be a big deal. But I repeat it is up to them to do what they want with their software and its security. If they decide to do it that way I would say it is because they did not care that much about people using i2 for non motec hardware log data.

Enviado desde mi GT-I9505 usando Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

I am not trying to be negative. I just wondered why after so many years where people have been using motec with rfactor without problems now somebody comes out asking if we would pay for an equivalent thing. It seems to me as with the arrival of rf2 all the things that used to be free (mods and addons) now we will start paying for, as it seems to be the case. This post is like a market survey to see if somebody can start making money with this as well.

As I said in previous post, motec people seem not to care that much about third party people using their program "illegally" since they have not done anything about it. I wonder if the rf2 plugin for motec thread has been withdrawn from this forum.

Redoing what it is already done is a loss of time IMO. I believe in the community pushing altogether and open source programs. Redoing motec for sims when it is already there seems stupid for me. Besides I am sure that a new tool would imply problems in the beginning as in any software. I am not willing to pay for something which i dont think it will work as well as motec does and that has been illegal but free. I would rather support ISI licensing motec which seems the most logical option to me. It looks like lot of people want to start taking advantage of the moment to try to sell their apps. They would better follow the way mobile apps have taken based upon publicity in the app to provide a free service.

If it does not happen too bad for everybody but I will not support this type of threads.

Enviado desde mi GT-I9505 usando Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

I'd most likely not buy it. I use i2 Pro right now, and that works great. I'd need a really good reason to buy an alternative.

Realtime analysis doesn't really make any difference to me. I prefer looking at nearly all my data later, after I've stopped.

I'd also prefer not to have to rebuy the software for each sim I use. I'd consider it if the incremental cost was less, but when I pay full price twice to use it with two sims, I'd prefer not to.

 

When considering a new tool for use to help with setups, it would be nice if the tool had features that were not readily available from other tools. In this case we are talking your software vs Motec. There are only a couple of things that Motec is lacking in my opinion, and those are real time telemetry, to which a plugin would have to be created for just about every sim anyone wants to drive, and a mechanism built in that would analyze the data and make intelligent suggestions for changes to the setup. If it were possible, something that would tell the driver that he was going too fast into the brake zone or things like that might also be helpful.

The latter suggestion would understandably be more difficult and time consuming due to the nature of the data that can be obtained from may of the sims. On top of that you will have to deal with software updates both by the manufacturer of the sim as well as from Steam, which all the Race content is currently released. I personally don't see a real need for real time for the driver, but if there were a way to have a crew chief looking at data and setting up pitstops, then yes the real time would be nice. The driver just doesn't need the distractions.

As far as how much I would pay, for me, not much due to me not racing currently because of my health, but others might consider it. If it would ease the burden some, I am sure there might be some willing to provide some help if it would keep the cost down. Oh by the way, I am actually against an annual renewal fee as I believe once you have purchased something, you should be able to use it till you decide not to. That is just my opinion though.

 

Just something to keep in mind:

You can have all the telemetry tools in the world you can get your hands on, but if the cars' physics are not modelled properly, the telemetry is useless.

Now I have full confidence ISI has modelled physics correctly, since they have real data and know the intricacies of their engine back to front (including limitations which they can appropriately factor certain parameters to attain a target result).
Given the complexity of rF2 now with the advanced tyre model, not to mention environment interaction, I suspect the gap between a well modelled car and a poorly modelled car will be even greater than what we witnessed in rF1.

The problem being that there will be lots of content that is not made by ISI, from people with no physics background let alone an understanding of the modelling behind the ISI physics engine. They will change parameters according to what they perceive to 'feel right' and then that is further complicated by their own equipment setup (both software and hardware).
Essentially what I'm saying is that I would be expecting (pessimistic I know) a lot of poorly modded cars created by the community - not through lack of trying or wanting to source appropriate data, but simply because of a lack of intimate knowledge of the software.
Model a car poorly (and you possible won't even know if it's been done poorly or not), you'll look at telemetry, make changes expecting a particular characteristic to be neutralised or created but since the car is not modelled properly, your changes may have no effect, induce more of the characteristics you were trying to fix or even induce other effects that may not even have much to do with what you were tinkering with!

So long story short, telemetry is a very valuable tool (I am involved with the equivalent of telemetry but on aircraft in my day-to-day job), however it can equally be invaluable if the car is not modelled appropriately.

On the bright side, ISI sharing some of the tyre information will certainly help modders get that aspect of the car sorted to some extent.

 

are we here to make money??? (it becomes so annoying, a lot of people here try to make money - some selling mods, others selling programs making tracks , now telemetry data program).it becomes worser and worser