Zero motion blur, amazing!!!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Spinelli, Feb 18, 2013.

  1. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    If these slowdowns are indeed caused by the IR emitter emulator, my just experienced a detachment from the nvidia 3D Cyril+T function. I couldn't turn it off the slowdowns when lightboost turned off. This has only happened maybe 3 times now and a reboot is required to resolve it.
     
  2. mdrejhon

    mdrejhon Registered

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    I am the author of the LightBoost HOWTO, and the high speed video of LightBoost, so please think and read my FAQ's before replying. I also am an associate member of Society for Information Display (sid.org) and read a number of scientific/academic papers ($150 per year subscription).
    Media can have motion blur. But some stuff such as sports, soap operas, and video games often don't have motion blur built into them.

    No, both you are correct.
    Sometimes it's good to have no motion blur
    Sometimes it's good to have motion blur

    Fixed it for ya.

    Motion blur can be beneficial for artistic reasons. I like motion blur when used artfully, and correctly, for the correct purposes. Perhaps as a special effect that only occurs during simulated dizziness, turbo nitro power up, or something like that. But not motion blur all the time.

    HOWEVER... It is desirable to eliminate motion blur in certain materials such as sports and video games. For some situations The display should not be the limiting factor in motion blur. The human eyes should be the limiting factor; e.g. any additional motion blur is added by the human eye. The display SHOULD NOT throw barriers in my way at the TIMES that I DO NOT want motion blur. LightBoost allows people to ACHIEVE this goal :eek:

    I prefer motion blur for movies, and preferred the 24fps of Hobbit than 48fps of Hobbit.
    HOWEVER... I prefer LightBoost zero motion blur for my video games!

    When Motion Blur Is Good
    Motion blur does have a few aesthetic and indirect advantages:

    • Hides stutters more pleasingly.
      ...Stutters are often easily noticeable on CRT than on LCD
    • Hides stroboscopic effects more pleasingly (e.g. wagon wheel artifacts).
      ...More important at lower refreshes like 60 Hz
    • Make low framerates more pleasing looking.
      ...If your framerate is far lower than refresh, motion blur is far more pleasing.
    • Makes for sometimes pretty imagery if you are doing things slowly.
      ...You aren't doing fast motions that require fast reactions.

    When Motion Blur Is Bad
    Once you have a great GPU that can do everything judder free, flicker free (by having fps=Hz, as in 120fps@120Hz, and most people can't see 120 Hz flicker) -- Then you gain the full benefits of elimination of motion blur!

    • You want the CRT-style "sports" smooth, perfectly sharp motions
      ...you see everything, pans look perfect, eye tracking is much easier
    • Motion blur can interfere with reaction times in FPS games
      ...let's go all the way to natural human limitation, without motion blur barriers from display
    • Prevent GPU and display from contributing with motion blur.
      ...let your eyes do motion blur naturally.
    • Some people just plain hate motion blur
      ...that's why Sony Motionflow 240 Hz TV's exists, and Hobbit 48fps exists

    (I'm the owner of the Blur Busters Blog at www.blurbusters.com)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 21, 2013
  3. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    Yeah it's very faint and can only be seen if one knows what to look for. Probably one of those things that would stop bothering within a week or so. Also 27" screen size will make the effect more noticeable.

    Only tested on rF2 and it was unimaginable unresponsive every single time I started it with 3D ticked. Long press of Ctrl+T did get rid of it but the game was still much heavier to the hardware. Don't know exact number but I'm guessing framerate was maybe 50 FPS lower with ticked 3D & Ctrl+T than it is with unticked 3D before launching rF2. I was suspecting there was some 3D calculations going under the hood of rF2.

    Only played rF2 so far but could imagine zero motion blur would clearly outweight little ghosting on other types of games where movements are lot faster. So far I don't feel like having any benefits from zero motion blur vs. 144 Hz regular but that's probably because of only doing simracing. It's about other indirect benefits that I get from 120 Hz LightBoost. Yep, my case is not very good for overall comparison of differences.
     
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  4. mdrejhon

    mdrejhon Registered

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    Spinelli, I'm happy you're enthusiac about my LightBoost stuff. I'm the author of many of the LightBoost links you've posted, as I run The Blur Busters Blog.

    However, it's best not to anger people because there are occasionally actually beneficial purposes to motion blur. For example, I prefer watching the Hobbit movie at 24fps than 48fps (although 48fps looked kinda nice). That said, I do prefer my sports and video games to have no motion blur caused by external factors. The display should not be a limiting factor whenever I don't want motion blur, but let people have the choice of whether they want the motion blur or not.

    Sometimes motion blur is good.
    Sometimes motion blur is bad.
    It depends on when it's used.
    For example -- IMHO -- motion blur is usually bad for competitive online FPS.

    I'm glad you are enthusiac and people are discovering the zero motion blur tweaks.
    Also new tip: Configure your LightBoost setting dimmer (LightBoost 10%, not "OFF") and you have even clearer motion. This is because the shorter strobe lengths (1.4 milliseconds at LightBoost=10%) has even less motion blur than the longer strobe lengths (2.4 milliseconds at LightBoost=100%) It's hard to notice, but can be seen in fast 180 degree flicks, strafing in front of a wall, or high speed low flybys (e.g. helicoptor in BF3).

    Keep spreading the LightBoost word! (but _please_ give due credit to original sources, as you've copy and pasted a few paragraphs of many posts that I have made ;) ...)
     
  5. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    Very good description about the ghosting on VG278HE. It's indeed very sharp and actually when observed very carefully there are two of them.

    And if 27" is mandatory then the non-E version could be the right choice at the time being.
     
  6. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    Guess no help from settings screen resolution and refresh rate to same on both OS and game. BTW did you also run that .reg file so your registry settings are correct too?
     
  7. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    Very good thing so I'm able to use 144 Hz non-LB on desktop - thanks!
     
  8. mdrejhon

    mdrejhon Registered

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    Sadly,
    1. The first OLED's have lots of motion blur. Not all OLED's eliminate motion blur.
    2. Motion blur can occur even with 0ms instant pixel response, due to sample-and-hold effect.
    3. Most motion blur on newer LCD's is not caused by LCD pixel persistence anymore
    ....(Remember: 2ms is less than 20% of length of a single refresh)


    Most motion blur nowadays is caused by the sample-and-hold effect. Frames are continuously shining for a full refresh. That's called sample-and-hold in scientific papers. Your eyes are always moving to track a moving object. Your eyes are in a different position at the beginning of a refresh, versus the end of a refresh. As a result, the frame is smeared across your vision, leading to perceived motion blur. The only way to reduce/eliminate this motion blur is to shorten the frame samples, either via extra Hz (and fps=Hz), or via shorter flashes of frames (flicker, ala CRT).

    That's why some people have said that the Sony PS Vita OLED display still has some LCD-style motion blur. LightBoost already is superior in motion blur to the first OLED's (e.g. PS Vita) although the OLED's have vastly superior color. Today's gaming LCD's are now down to 1ms or 2ms pixel persistence, so it's an insignificant part of a refresh. (Refreshes at 60Hz are 16.7 milliseconds, and refreshes at 120 Hz are 8.33ms. Yet even a 120 Hz LCD has _far_ more motion blur than even a CRT at 60fps@60Hz)

    Yes, it is possible to impulse-drive some OLED's (flicker). OLED's can respond instantly, and are very flickerable displays. Unfortunately, OLED's have had a long struggle with brightness, and that will work against adding extra black periods between refreshes (flicker) since you ideally want a very bright display, in order to compensate. (Do you know how insanely bright CRT phosphor shine?)

    FWIW, LightBoost strobe backlight displays (configured to 10% via OSD) have a backlight illumination of 1.4 milliseconds. Blur Busters Blog did a photodiode+oscilloscope test and found 1.4ms for LightBoost=10% and 2.4ms for LightBoost=100%. The 1.4ms strobe results in a frame sample of 1/700th of a second! Even the 2.4ms strobe is still less than 1/400th of a second and still has far less motion blur than non-LightBoost 144Hz (frame sample length of 1/144th second).

    The 1.4ms flash of the LightBoost backlight per refresh is equivalent to the speed of CRT phosphor illuminate-and-decay cycle of a typical Sony FW900 CRT (medium-persistence phosphor). It is scientifically proven that frame sample lengths determine motion blur, and frame sample lengths can be independent of refresh rate (this is why CRT 60fps@60Hz looks more fluid than LCD 120fps@120Hz).

    For the situation of fast-motion where frame rate equals refresh rate, and where the source material has no built-in motion blur (e.g. soft focus, slow camera, GPU blur effect, etc):
    ...An impulse-driven display (CRT or LightBoost) that flashes pixels for 1/700th of a second, results in the same amount of perceived motion blur to a theoretical 700fps@700Hz sample-and-hold display (ala theoretical traditional LCD), which does not exist.

    More study? See the academic papers, articles, and human measurements in Science & References.
     
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  9. mdrejhon

    mdrejhon Registered

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    For high speed video proof, of the LightBoost strobe backlight breaking the pixel persistence barrier:



    The backlight is turned off while waiting for pixel transitions (unseen by human eyes), and the backlight is strobed only on fully-refreshed LCD frames (seen by human eyes). The strobes can be shorter than pixel transitions, breaking the pixel persistence barrier!
     
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  10. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    yes i have, it's the only way to get the 3d option to become available.

    Oh and i've just been driving in spa....this is truly meant for racing before anything else. It adds a whole other meaning to the word realism. You actually feel like your there because the picture is so damn smooth when in motion as it would be irl.

    edit 2:

    So i've been doing some more driving.....and it's absolutely ****ing subliminal! There is such a great sense of presence in the game that you feel like your actually there and as if time almost feels like it has slowing down giving you more time to think, i'm really not making this **** up or embellishing.

    This experience in rf2 alone has sealed the deal for me....i'm keeping the monitor.

    [​IMG]

    :)

    oh and i managed to find 0.5s in the corvette on spa having not driven for about a week and being dead dead dead dead tired from the last weeks worth of constant uni work...yet pulled this out the hat. I wasn't even pushing the car that hard i just felt a sense of control that I didn't feel with my old monitor and resultantly did not trust the car around corners as much as i do now (complete trust now). The corners feel so slick and smooth and i have a much more fine-tuned sense for the grip, balance and speed of the car causing my control inputs to naturally be way less aggressive and more minimalist as a result. I don't over react....I don't under react.....just the perfect amount of reacting.....a "mind like water" state of being and presence.


    I have to be honest, i did think your reaction and massive bold fonts statements in here about how great this is Spenilli to be ott at the time. But I can completely understand and appreciate where your coming from now.
     
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  11. mdrejhon

    mdrejhon Registered

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    Great to hear you love it!

    For new buyers who don't need the bigger 27" size, I advise looking at the superior 1ms panels which are the ASUS VG248QE or the BENQ XL2411T. There's slightly more of a TN color shift (Lagom Viewing Angle Test Pattern) on a 27" TN than a 24" TN. There's still a minor sharp after-image effect on the VG278HE that doesn't exist on the VG248QE or XL2411T. Most people said 1ms was worthless but I was impressed that the 1ms actually made a difference over 2ms, in virtually eliminating the crosstalk afterimage that occurs with LightBoost on my VG278H. (That also improves 3D stereoscopic if you like that sort of stuff; eliminate that leakage between left eye / right eye).

    However, even the 27" TN's look much better after a good calibration.
     
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  12. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Great!! It's just as amazing as the hype makes it sound isnt it??

    If you have the frames locked to exactly 120fps will you still get the double image on the 2 ms monitors?? What about 119 fps or 121, sometimes I need to lock my game at 119fps for it to show 120fps.

    Mdrejhon......
    Thank you soooooooo much for chimming in here, I did put complete links to your how too :), some of my links don't seem to show up in my tapatalk on my iPhone, not sure why, but I definitely put links there from your how to and a few other forums' threads.

    I wanna thank you for providing even more detailed technical info. Some ppl don't seem to go by peoples experiences or hype, and aren't truly convinced until they see the actual math, science and technicalities behind something. So I would like to thank you IMMENSELY for providing some great technical info on the subject, and just for coming in here and helping out so much, and clarifying so many things to others, especially to the ppl that need assistance, and to the stubborn doubters lol :).

    . i think you may have meant "sublime" :)
     
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  13. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    same thing :p
     
  14. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    I'm really curious as to what and how big of a difference the crosstalk really is between the two VG278 models. When you say that the 1ms completely removes the crosstalk....is that with respect to when using the display in 3D or in both 2D/3D. I honestly can't tell in-game any ghosting effect and i used to notice them one some pretty shoddy first gen LED backlit monitors that had mile long and evident ghosting. In PerPixAn it's very clear and obvious when viewing things like the flags or coloured boxes but less so on that the car and letters readability test. It's noticable in them but when in a game i can't see any of it at any speed of the mouse.

    oh yeah....and last but not least, thanks for that link. :)
     
  15. mdrejhon

    mdrejhon Registered

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    Both. It's the same cause. The 3D crosstalk is the same intensity as the afterimage effect in 2D LightBoost. Less 3D crosstalk also means less 2D LightBoost afterimage effect. Better 3D panels have better LightBoost effect. LightBoost was originally designed for 3D but benefits 2D motion blur too (media reports) (high speed video proof)

    It's just simply the faint leftover pixel persistence (1%) that "leaks into the next frame". Newer LCD's are getting better and better at completely erasing pixel persistence before the next refresh (doing 3D forced manufacturers to do this); and this makes it possible to have excellent strobe backlights like LightBoost for the 100% "CRT motion" effect, even for 2D gaming.

    True, the afterimage effect is hard to see in actual real life game scenarios.
    It is far easier to see in PixPerAn motion tests.
    Some people are very sensitive, though.

    Here's a report by someone who has both VG278H and VG278HE:
    It is also wholly possible this person had a bad VG278HE, of course. But this apparently wasn't the only report; I got two others.

    Regardless, even the lowly VG278HE performs great with LightBoost for many!
     
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  16. mdrejhon

    mdrejhon Registered

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    Here are some tests on the LightBoost strobe backlight. I get the same result for both my BENQ XL2411T and the ASUS VG278H:

    PixPerAn Tests On Motion Blur (on the Same LightBoost monitor)
    60 Hz regular .............................. baseline (16.7ms frames)
    120 Hz regular ............................ 50% less motion blur than 60 Hz (8.33ms frames)
    120 Hz with LightBoost(100%) ....... 85% less motion blur than 60 Hz (2.4ms frame flashes)
    120 Hz with LightBoost(10%) ......... 92% less motion blur than 60 Hz!!! (1.4ms frame flashes)

    The PixPerAn readability test scores 30, especially when I adjust the LightBoost setting slightly via the monitor's OSD (I usually play with 50-60%, because 10% gets too dim except at night). I'll say it is amazing to have 5x less motion blur than regular 120 Hz, and over 10x less motion blur than 60 Hz (1.4ms samples versus 16.7ms samples). The 1.4ms strobe backlight flashes is almost the same length as CRT phosphor decay (which shines for 1-2ms).

    Even at PixPerAn racing car speeds of Tempo 8 at 120 Hz, I can perfectly read the "I NEED MORE SOCKS" text. No motion blur, no ghosting, no coronas, no trailing artifacts seen.

    [​IMG]
    (Credit: OCBurner's article)
     
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  17. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    Thank you for that....i'm actually looking at a H that may be only a few more pounds only but will need to call them in the morning to confirm it's priced with final VAT.
     
  18. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    Oh.....well that's a comforting statement to hear. :)
     
  19. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    Tried that with different refresh rates. If I set refresh rate to 120 Hz from nVidia Control Panel, do the tick/3D test app/Ctrl+T/untick thing from 3D settings (LightBoost should now be on) and also set rF2 to use the same 120 Hz then LightBoost stays on the whole time from desktop to game and back. However if I change refresh rate under 100 Hz from rF2 settings then it acts just like yours; I have LightBoost on at desktop, entering rF2 causes LightBoost to go off and once I exit the game LightBoost is back on. If I change settings to opposite (120 Hz in rF2 and 60 Hz in nVidia Control Panel) then it also acts opposite; now LightBoost is off at desktop, switches on when rF2 starts and back to LightBoost off when exiting the game.

    So are you absolutely sure that your rF2 is configured properly like on this screenshot (resolution, refresh rate and color depth are same):

    View attachment 6359

    Windowed should also be unticked because it could affect this issue and more importantly because it increases input lag.
     
  20. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    ok, it's working fine now and i didn't touch it....lol. Let's hope it stays that way or i'll try your steps next time, ty KeiKei.

    fyi, i'm actually completely adjusted to this brightness level and with some colour/contrast/vibrance/etc tweaks it actually looks pretty darn good.


    FYI, i would tell people that upgrading your monitor to one of these is better than any upgrade for your wheel.....seriously. Ofc, if you can afford both...the more power to you. :p

    In BF3, i can run into corners and flick my mouse around without single drop of blur to my vision meaning i spot the enemy first and react quicker....it's no frick'n joke how good and pleased i am with this purchase.

    Thank Youuuuuuuuuu guys!
     
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