rF2 biggest challenger?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by taufikp, Nov 28, 2012.

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  1. richiespeed13

    richiespeed13 Registered

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    Hi Mate,

    I will list some reasons why ISI AI, in it's current state, will always be poor, in my opinion. And also the reasons why I believe the AI having their own physics makes them shockingly awful to race against:

    Issues with CPU drivers intelligence:

    • The AI have no awareness of player, if you stop in the middle of the track they make little effort to avoid you
    • AI "follow" a set path, they have no ability to learn their own lines and race like an actual human
    • The AI have almost no racing awareness, they make little effort to defend or overtake
    • Similar to above, AI have no ability to race hard. They will not stay side by side with you for several corners, once you are slightly ahead they will slow down, even if you are on a long straight.
    • AI rely on humans making setups for them, I would like to see a system one day where AI can actually make changes to their own setup, like changing gear ratios and adjusting downforce.


    There are many other issues with the "Intelligence" aspect of AI, but these are some that I notice most often. Now I will get on to what is by far the worst thing about the ISI engine AI, the fact that AI use an extremely simple physics model.

    Because of this, racing the AI is almost pointless to me. I will list some reasons:

    • AI have poor physics logic, they may be in the same care as you, but what they are actually driving is nothing like your car.
    • They often have far too much grip in fast corners, and far too little speed in slow corners. This is especially obvious at the start of the race, when you are on cold tyres, and the AI have super grippy magic tyres.
    • Because of this simple AI physics, AI suffer almost no damage at all from accidents. The only way to make an AI car suffer from damage is to destroy his engine, or make him lose a wheel. AI do not get effected by suspension damage at all. They will happily lose a wing and continue at race pace.
    • Another example of the poor physics, if an AI car does lose a wheel, for example the front left, it is purely visual. The car will not have it's handling affected one tiny bit, and you will see the front left "magically floating" rather than grinding into the floor. The engine covers this up by having the AI pull over and retire.
    • AI are very old fashioned, "perfect" AI. They make no mistakes. Yes, some mods make the AI have low stability, by adjusting torquestab and damper settings, but all this does is make the AI lose control when they take a retarded line into a corner. I have never seen an AI completely spin out of a slow corner on the power.
    • AI don't ever lock up brakes, run wide, "fight" the car, etc. They are floating objects that follow a set path, rarely changing their lines ar acting even remotely realistic.
    • AI tye models are poor, they have vastly different grip values to a human. Try and do a pit maneuver to an AI and see how it feels. You will probably crash rather than the AI.
    • AI are not effected by track surfaces. Ever seen an AI drive through a gravel trap like it's tarmac? AI are not effected by grass or gravel like a human is.
    • Also, as you will have noticed by the AI sounds when they are driving, you will never hear tyre squeel or transmission wine, this is because the AI is not really simulating very much other than it's visual appearance on the track.
    • One of the worst things is that ISI AI have no real suspension model, as I said before, they are "floating". If you got an AI car to lose all 4 wheels it would simply float in the air.
    • Everything regarding AI in the ISI engine relies on a modder/developer putting in "AI" values to each vehicle. For example, a human has an entire file dedicated to tyre slip angles, an AI simply has "AI grip = 1.0". (Example, not a quote from a file). Everything we get, the AI gets a super simplified version of.


    There are so, so many more issues than what I have listed above, but these are just some off the top of my head. Some mods do a better job than others, but the weak, shallow, boring AI will always show through eventually.

    At least it's no where near as bad as codemasters F1 AI, they aren't even simplified, they are quite literally fake.

    Also, GP4 AI does use human physics. This is obvious when you play, as the AI share the exact same problems as you. They always have the same grip as you no matter what the weather throws at you, they lock up, spin out, make mistakes, and if they lose a wheel the car actually dips into the ground. And aside from the physics, the AI in GP4 have by far the best racing ability of any sim I have ever raced.

    Play rFactor 2 with a grid of 25 cars, and start last. Even if you make the AI 120%, you will be in the top 10 after one lap, because they fail so epicly at racing with eachother. This needs to be addressed.

    I am not just bashing the ISI engine, I love it and enjoy it very much. But when it comes to offline? It's awful. And I genuinely don't think we will see a race sim with AI like GP4's for many, many years. Assetto corsa is the only hope, but we will have to wait and see. Even if it does have good AI, I doubt race weekends will be simulated properly, or championship formats etc.

    I will be waiting for a game with decent AI until I am an old man, I fear...

    :(
     
  2. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Assetto Corsa's physics model, inlcuding the tyre model, has nothing to do with Netkar Pro. They have been written from complete scratch for AC. The devs said that NK Pro had too many physics issues, and had to start from scratch with the physics model (including tire model).
     
  3. 88mphTim

    88mphTim racesimcentral.net

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    A huge amount of your list I have the totally opposite experience. They avoid me when stopped, they are aware I am there, they try to defend from me, they are a little timid overtaking (give you that one), they do back out (did that on purpose really, humans are often more dumb than AI when racing hard :D ), they do follow within a guideline of the real racing line, and will choose different ones, but outside of oval racing I am not sure how often I have ever seen a driver choose a different racing line on a roadcourse more than the AI already do...

    If you are beating them on 120%, how are you racing them? How long are you racing them? Because the kind of things I assume you are doing to take advantage of the flaws in non-humans, should eventually lead you to lose out to them later on. The AI are largely designed for you to act like a racing driver, and although they have some issues, my experience is nothing like yours...
     
  4. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    Hi richie!

    To make one thing clear: I don´t own rF2 myself (yet) but I´m driving it often at a friend.
    So most things I say are relating to rf1, with which AI I messed to death!
    But as I know, the rf2 AI is pretty similar in its structure so it should count :cool:

    The awareness of player is indeed not perfect, but from what I saw still better than in rF1.
    I saw AI´s surrounding a player when he stands with his car still on the track. That´s also the case in rF1 but it depends on.

    Thats true to some point: Isn´t it the case that the AIW in rF2 is much more "open" and not as fixed as in rF1?
    Don´t took a look to the files yet, but I remember reading something like that months ago...
    The AI in rF is absolutely able to use different lines! In rF1 there are already 3 AIW lines they could use, and in between, and they do! It´s ocassional a matter of tweaks in the Talent-file.

    Absolutely not true! If they are set correctly, they overtake like hell! Defending is not theire strong point I agree, but
    they can make you a hard time!

    Oh yes, they do! Had it often that I drive with them side by side through several corners/straights!
    Have often pretty excellerating-dragracing-like moments.

    That would be nice! Yes. This is a problem when you don´t have fixed tracks for one series so you can setup the AI
    for the several tracks.

    Yes there is a difference, but that doesn´t mean that it isn´t possible to set the AI tires in a way that the AI´s behave correctly! That is a modders thing and sadly most modders are not able to do it well.
    I for one am able to adjust the AI tires so that they behave very similar to me as a human player and I do this in my mods succesfull. That would solve problems with unequal acceleration, cornering, instability and so on and results in a far more
    "humanlike" AI with sliding and traction problems and so on.

    ISI trie to solve this with the "AImistakes" line in the PLR-file. ANd this is working to a point where I´m happy with.
    Try "AImistakes=0.1000" to 0.15 I have seen AI spinning. Again: not without a proper AI-tire model!

    With AImistakes they do all this things.

    Again: Needs proper AI tire model which can be modded.

    No skidding or transm. whining --- sad but true! But to say they have only visual apperance is a little hard, don´t you think?

    Obviously not yet in rF2 no. But in rF1 they are! So it will come...

    Yes. And thats because the rF physics is so complex. If the CPU should calculate your same physics x 24 (for you+23 AI)
    you would need a 25 core supercomputer.

    I can sum up all this to two points:

    1. It all depends on what modders do with the AI! When modders don´t make proper tire for AI and proper Talents a.s.o.
    it will all be messed up. In rf1 as in rF2.

    2. It seems as ISI is not yet finished with the AI-tweaking for the existing rF2 mods! Most things you are talking about
    are possible or correct in rF1 and WILL be there in rF2 when it´s finished, so don´t worry!
    The core itself isn´t so bad as you think!

    Greets
    Pete
     
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  5. Gearjammer

    Gearjammer Registered

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    Hmmm, a 5 computer network, each computer running an 8 core processor and all cores set for racing sim affinity.... Now that would be an interesting setup to race with ;)
     
  6. 88mphTim

    88mphTim racesimcentral.net

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    You'd then also need another hundred or so for them to be able to drive those realistic physics in a completely realistic way, don't forget. :)
     
  7. Gearjammer

    Gearjammer Registered

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    Pretty much sounds like it would be better to race against real people :)
     
  8. 88mphTim

    88mphTim racesimcentral.net

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    Well I'm sure a synthetic human brain can't be that far away. Right? :)
     
  9. richiespeed13

    richiespeed13 Registered

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    I hear what you guys are saying. And I completely understand about the issue of a computer not being able to handle every AI having extremely complex car physics. But I do believe it could still be done significantly better than it is now. Even if the AI still has to be fake/simplified to some extent, there are many (crappy) console games that do a good job of making AI seem human.

    The games themselves might fail miserably, but there is work put into the AI and it shows. It would be nice if somebody took the ISI engine, and just used 100% of it's potential to make AI improvements, because imo, although I understand that there are limitiations, I do think it can still be done much better. GP4 has fantastic AI, and look how old it is...

    Even if ISI was to make the AI's totally fake, if they were faked well enough that I thought they were real, I would be very happy.

    But, I also accept that maybe I need to experience some different mods and different AI settings to improve my experience.

    @Peterchen, if you could give me any advice as to how to get the AI to the way you describe, I would appreciate it very much!

    Thanks!
     
  10. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    I got -REP for saying "daylight" .................Weeeeeeeeee lopl


    On my dying oath that is my belief, I do not think there is anything will or can touch rF2 in the long run.


    lmao :)


    You can sit here and tell me titles you have not tried will be as good as rF2, thats your right, to what end I have no idea ............but don't bag me ( -rep) for my honesty. lol
     
  11. richiespeed13

    richiespeed13 Registered

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    One other thing Tim, regarding AI damage model, will we ever see AI being effected by suspension damage? Or at the very minimum, if an AI gets suspension damage, the game recognizes this, makes them slow down a little, and asks them to pit for repairs.

    And also, could we ever see the AI's car responding, and not "floating" when it loses a wheel?

    I guess my general question is, do ISI plan on doing anything more to the AI?

    I know many other features are more important, but it would be nice to know.

    Thanks.
     
  12. tjc

    tjc Registered

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    I certainly hope so, quite a lot more please.

    I know things have their place and it might not be high up that famous list but I hope they`ll be improved from how they presently are. :)
     
  13. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    Why spend so much time and effort on ai.

    This is the simmers online title of the future.

    Reverse fanatsy tracks and staged damage


    Great , go put ai in iRacing please.



    As I am paying for it as well and have a equal say I would much rather no BS involved.


    you spend all this money to get licences, to make it real and then people want to turn it into a shift fanatasy.


    Fine I have no problems but if it comes to that ...........you can make 2 versions of rF2

    Same as I would like 2 versions of rF2 ...... 1 Pro and 1 with aids.

    You could make another 2 versions RF2 Real road and RF2 fantasy road............I know which I would be buying.



    See ...............I want you to have the choice to have fantasy till your hearts desired ( 2 versions ) but you cant wish me the same can you. I am simply wrong hey. lol
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 29, 2012
  14. Hedlund_90

    Hedlund_90 Registered

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    I agree with everything richiespeed listed. rF2 AI is really poor.
    They are better on ISI tracks of course, I think Spa with the 60's F1 is the best AI experience. But still, it's not very good, yet.

    Sometimes I have great battles with AI and we drive side by side trough several corners but that's too rare. I often need 5-10 race restarts just to complete one single lap at Spa with 60's F1, because the first corner is really hard. I try to leave space for them but they don't avoid my car so there's small contact between us and I end up in the river while AI is continuing like nothing happened.

    AI never, ever try to overtake on straights, where they could simply fly away from me with help of slipstreaming. Maybe they could overtake in the braking due to superior grip but probably not. They also have superior grip in the start (I have no chance at all).

    When you chasing AI they are really, really slow in high speed corners so you could end up crashing in his rear. But when you overtake him, he drives as fast as you trough the very same corner next lap. I've noticed AI in front of you is slower than the AI's behind you. Always.

    Nah... very bad AI. IMO impossible to race against. Just makes my angry.
     
  15. richiespeed13

    richiespeed13 Registered

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    I am afraid this sums up my experience with ISI AI 100%

    I am trying at the moment to tweak some files and make improvements, but I am not sure if anything will solve the fundamental issues within the engine that you listed above. I think the only solution here is that ISI actually change some of the hard coded AI features, which probably takes a lot of work, which probably means it won't happen.
     
  16. Gearjammer

    Gearjammer Registered

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    There is one really big issue I have with your idea of 2 separate versions of the sim DD. If someone purchased the "Non-Pro" version and then decided they wanted to race with others that had the "Pro" version, it would require that they make another purchase instead of just turning off stuff in the sim and saving money.
     
  17. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    rF2 will be the premier ONLINE sim so really ai will never ever matter to me.

    If you want to say other sims are better for ai and to play offline, well I agree. ! So play them. ?

    Lets not turn rF2 into another shift Ewwuhhhhh




    LOL
    Hit me with your best shot you snot nosed reputation stealer lol :)
    Take it all could not give a rats bum you small minded thing.
     
  18. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    and you would have the choice to race with aids mates and do your leagues in silence.


    Imagaine a pro sim were you did not have to worry about setting all this fantasy stuff .

    For this you would pay more but get a discount for 2.
     
  19. tjc

    tjc Registered

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    As I`ve said D, I quite like your idea but surely it could be done on one sim... one disc.

    If you click "Pro" all the stuff you mention is there or not there as the case may be but if you click "Ama" (or whatever) then you can take that route if you want. No need for two disks...

    Plus why does having good AI make you go "Ewwuhhhhh" lol...

    I think we could have a full no aids, Pro rf2 with top drawer AI... why not?
     
  20. 88mphTim

    88mphTim racesimcentral.net

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    Yes, of course.
     
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