Tyre wear not yet implemented?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by martymoose, Oct 3, 2012.

  1. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    There is a definite negative effect of over driving as you say, locking up and spinning rears on exits wont get you much more pace at least it never has for me lol. But driving like that the tyres will overheat and lose grip, the issue im saying is that there is no tyre degredation as is seen in nearly every other form of real life motorsports.

    Over driving on a qualy lap may mean you need to do a slower lap next to cool them down a little then have another go but once back to the proper temps you will have the same grip levels if you do 1 lap or a thousand laps with 7x wear rate. There is no dropoff and even though there are rare occasions when some tyres like the grooved F1 bridgestones and some other grooved tyres may be getting quicker as they wear into almost a slick this is not the norm.

    In v8 supercars as in all race series tyre strategy is a vital part of the racing and they only have a limited amount of rubber, best laps are from the tyres within their first few laps so they try and save fresh rubber for qualy sessions. Many times they need to re use tyres from earlier races and the guys on freshest rubber are always considerably quicker. If there was no negative effect of running lots of laps on tyres even if not abused then there would be no real reason to have to worry about tyre strategy as this is all about maximizing performance through the degradation of the tyres life.

    I dont know much about the real F2 or F3.5 races to be honest, I dont know how long the races are or if they even have pit stops so its likely they have a tyre with low degradation through its life but as with nearly all tyres I would expect them to be at their optimum when pretty new.
     
  2. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    While I believe all input is helpful the major stuff like tyres is not something that is going to be changed by beta testers.

    As a beta tester you have already brought rF2, I just saying better to worrying about it then.

    Most likely any data from testing you do with beta packages could be thrown out the window by Gold. :)
     
  3. Minibull

    Minibull Member

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    The WSR 3.5 run a 44 minute race + 1 lap. 1 mandatory stop, with a minimum tyre change of 2 tyres.
     
  4. thuGG

    thuGG Registered

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    The simple test that would confirm it would be to do a lap on non rubbered track.
    Then do some donuts. Then let the tyres cool down and do a lap again.
    If the time and handling is worse, then tire wear is in place.

    That way the track rubbering is eliminated.
     
  5. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    Its just a bit worrying when the guys at ISI seem to believe something is working if it can be proven that its not, I was surprised by Tims response as I just expected him to say its not yet implemented as I have seen no effect of it in the few cars I have tried it with.

    Tim did say its not final but hes saying tyre wear is actually being simulated but if its got absolutely zero negative effect when they believe its working in some way at least then why would they need to fix something they dont believe is broken. Using 7x tyre wear has no effect either so what is the purpose of that option? and the fact that I am apparently too slow to test this is a little funny as Im nearly a second faster then the AI @120% so going by that theory the AI will have no effect from tyre degredation ever because they are nowhere near the grip limits of the tyre if they are so much slower then me "captain slow" ;)

    But tyre wear does effect everyone just some more then others if they abuse the tyres, even if you were lapping 5 seconds off the pace then degredation would still effect you and possibly even more as your likely locking brakes and sliding through corners much more then the quicker guys.

    I do take it that ISI dont really care about us paid beta testers and what we say has very little effect, there may be newer builds where this is done better already, but Tim just said there is no reason why tyres need to lose performance as they wear which I find very hard to believe in any modern race tyre that this is the case.

    If they dont want us to point out what I think is a pretty critical bug in the tyre simulation, then I see little point of posting anything in these forums besides off topic discussions.
     
  6. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    The thing is a non rubbered track evolves very quickly even with just a single car on track, so every lap you get big chunks of grip and a green track with cold tyres has pretty much no grip. It takes a couple of laps to get tyres up to temp on a green track so as you would warm them up the track starts coming to you. But if you have 100% worn rears they should have an effect so I will give that a go anyway to see what happens. With a couple of 5-10 lap stints on green tracks one with burnouts and one without to see if 0% rears have any effect.
     
  7. thuGG

    thuGG Registered

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    What's even more worrying is saying that Tim is trying to tell us it's how it supposed to be. Because some F1 tires in the past tires gained grip with thread down, so yeah probably all of the tires work the same. Doesn't matter that practically in most racing series tires loose grip with wear...
     
  8. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    I know my street tyres gain grip on my r33 skyline as the rears turn to slicks ;) not long after this point threads and steal starts to appear and so the police dont like the look of my skyline on slicks. Also when my tyres got to that level and it started to rain I needed to get off the lights in 3rd gear as they have zero grip in the wet.

    But thats talking treaded tyres that get more surface area as they wear down kind of like those pics posted from DD's tortured AI grip making slaves ;) From all I have seen with racing slicks they do have a small window for optimum grip but then beyond that the degradation varies from very little with some hard compound GT tyres to the so called "off the cliff" F1 super soft tyres but all lose some performance as they are used up.
     
  9. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    At least with GT1 car there are not very huge difference.

    I did test tires and brakes cold, manipulated abs to be perfectly efficient and also set brake balance to 60% rear, braking from 120kph on surface not driven before so no rubber build up.

    With fresh tires 0.94G best deceleration.

    With worn tires 0.96G best decelaration.

    Other rear had 20% tread left and other one hand 40%, also I did let tires and brakes to cool before test with worn tires, might have let them cool bit more, but they refused to cool at pace of my impatience, so they were 45-50C instead of around 30C of fresh tires, which might have contributed that 0.02G but certainly according to parameters there should be clearly measurable tire wear effect on grip which there was not.

    Oh yes, I did check brake pressures too, there was no any difference really to rear brake pressures and with 40:60 brake bias if there would of been difference in grip it would of shown at brake pressure as ABS perfectly attempts to keep tires at edge of locking. Without ABS it was like pulling the handbrake, so there was power to lock wheels.

    Based on that, I would say there is something work to look to see if it does really work as intended. Of course better test could be developed and at least several runs would be needed to do, but even this kind of few minutes test should be enough to show quite reliably how it really is, good thing in test like this is that there is quite little human factor in it, also it is easy to repeat, much better than lap times that have so much human variables.
     
  10. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    Whilst trying to do the donut test I found another bug, not sure if its repeatable but this is what happened after a few minutes and when the tyre most likely burst. The game froze on this screen and I couldnt change views or anything completely unresponsive, I had to ALT TAB out and force close RF2.

    See the image attached what the RR tyre data says? That is in cockpit view no idea what the grey thing is but maybe I hit the wall as I couldnt see much through the smoke but the tyres were well fu$#ed lol.

    View attachment 4149

    Will try again and this time not completely over do it lol.
     
  11. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    I got freeze when trying to do burnout against start light pole, it was fine to over 800 degrees tire temps, but then as I was looking from outside view it kind of stopped, engine kept screaming, camera continued rotating and was not stopping, also tire smoke was emitting, but tires were not spinning, however tire looked like if it would soon coming off from rim.

    I get those quite often when car is rolling 1kph or such, sometimes there is big jolt to wheel too, same happens with 8000kg Kenworth in 30 meters when I try to drive it with tires I made for it, I'm not sure what causes it as there seem not to be much more logic than relatively low wheel rotating speed, but I guess it is some variable going whack.
     
  12. Minibull

    Minibull Member

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    Hahahahaha! Whats with the right rear tyre?? -millionbillionzillion degrees
     
  13. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    I have often engine rpm shown and it goes like that, often negative that, that made me actually think that maybe there is some variable where value goes over the range and that causes whole physics code go berserk, but I have not been able to really find out how to make that happen so no point posting to bugs as there are no way devs can then reproduce it.
     
  14. argo0

    argo0 Registered

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    Keep testing guys, I appreciate your efforts. Its very important that you have brought this issue to the attention of ISI and the rest of us beta testers.
     
  15. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    Here is the 10 Laps green tyre runs, I used normal fuel and normal tyres and 10 Lap race on my own on a fully green track with a warmup lap.

    One warmup lap I did a burnout until tyres were pretty well gone and even the engine was well cooked but I disabled mechanical damage as first burnout attempt ended with a blown engine lol. Second attempt caused the bug above not sure if its repeatable but thats why this time I didnt try to get to 0 in the rear tyres just in case. I needed to wait a while before going to the grid after the burnout as it was smoking like a BBQ and I also had a couple litres more fuel to make sure I didn't run out a lap short due to the 5 minutes of burnouts lol.

    Then I ran the 2 races as fast as I could but a green track is much trickier to figure the grip levels early then a rubbered track so first few laps have a few slips and slides so there is more variation in lap times. I have to say I prefer green track driving as its much more feel based then a fully rubbered track that is much more on rails and easily controlled even though its about 2.5 seconds faster on a rubbered track then a green track after about 5-10 laps with a single car where I was down to mid 1:12's either way.

    I am attaching my motec files along with some motec grabs and in game lap chart screens to show both runs. I was a couple tenths faster on the fresh rubber on average but this is more due to me getting used to this car on a green track the shot rears had zero effect on my grip levels.

    So after Trying green track or rubbered track I have come to the conclusion that there is zero tyre wear implemented in the F2 tyres. Sure I am a bit of a variable but I think my lap times are pretty consistent and I am not that slow but destroyed rubber should have a significant negative effect to new rubber IMHO unless at the extreme case of some treaded tyres getting grippier as they turn into a more slick like tyre.

    Anyone could recreate these tests easy enough but its best to do on a track and car combination with a fixed setup that you have pretty much hit your peak at so your not still learning the track. The changing track conditions do make this a little tricky but its definitely one of the best aspects of RF2 and works quite well even if at too fast a rate currently.

    Tim says I may not be able to feel the grip and maximize the tyres but in the green track runs I am pushing as hard if not harder as when I run my PB times on a rubbered track. I can feel the car behave differently and there is easily a lack of grip on green vs rubbered. This shows up in handling and laptimes even with a crappy driver like me lol but when it comes to tyre wear itself when not overheated the tyres will be no different at 0% as they are at 100%.

    The replay files of both runs are below

    http://www.mediafire.com/?323cas5t0hyp12v
    http://www.mediafire.com/?et1nnhb3i58qk0k
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2012
  16. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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  17. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    I will see if I can repeat that crash but if it takes a five minute burnout it likely wont ever be repeated in normal use of the game. Maybe in a drift mod this could come up but even then your going to blow an engine before this happens to the rear tyres.

    Main reason I went to so much detail on this issue is because Tim thinks its working as intended, not final by any stretch but I think my tests prove it has zero effect and that is far from working to any level.
     
  18. KeiKei

    KeiKei Registered

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    Yeah, looks like 32-bit signed integer got overflown. First I was surprised to see such inaccurate datatype used for tire temps but when you think of it then surely tire temp didn't reach 2 billion degrees Celsius which would cause the overflow. :) So there must be something else like tire temp is stored into integer with some kind of multiplication in it (for example 1 degree is stored as 10000 "units"). Well, still sounds unlikely so probably there is something else. Anyway clearly a bug to be fixed.

    What comes to tire wear I've started to believe it's not working at the moment. Thanks Martymoose and Jtbo for your efforts to bring it up! Well performed beta testing! :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2012
  19. Esteve Rueda

    Esteve Rueda Registered

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    I will test GTR, because I had a 100Laps event in mid Ohio and I thought my GTR was losing grip (not time, because I was driving confortably) at the end of my stints.
     
  20. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    I think I did confuse Megane tires and GTR tires before, not huge differences, GrooveEffects=(0.15,0.15,0.13,0.09) with GT1 tires.

    I made then such test where I set GrooveEffects=(1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0), which from my understanding is that if tires are 50% worn, you get grip reduced by 50%.

    So I had patience only to wear tires around 40% so there was 60% tread left, I set this time brake balance to 100% rear and did braking from 200kph to 0 with perfect abs set to high.

    Also I warmed tires to around 45-47C before first braking test as when doing 2nd braking test with worn tires, they were around 50C.

    There are no statistically significant difference to brake pressure or deceleration rate. 0.80-0.83G with peak or two to 0.85G in both cases, even with my understanding there should be clearly less grip available with worn tires of such setting, if my understanding is correct, there should of been around 40% less grip available to stop the car, which should of resulted less G forces and less brake pressure, of course this is just my understanding of those parameters, those are little discussed parameters that perhaps few has had chance to look thoroughly yet.

    So currently in build 107 for me it looks like that I can't cause any difference to happen to grip by tire wear, at least not measurable.

    edit: As this looks like to be a bug of some sorts, I created report here:
    http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/7980-Tire-wear-has-no-effect-to-grip-level
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2012

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