FIA Formula Two Williams JPH1B Released

My name isn't Tim, but I can answer this anyway . Luciano's comments on the car were mostly resolved but perhaps not completely in such a short space of time. None the less, they were minor enough that F2 were happy enough to for us to release their car in beta form.

The main issue we probably have remaining is mild understeer, which required either a slightly larger front wing angle (about 1 click) or running the front of the car 1-2mm lower than he did in real life. We believe we understand the reasons this might be and have obtained more data on the car following this test.

The changes will come to the tyres, minor aero tweaks (literally in fractions of a %) and a few other areas. Right now it's hard to say for sure what will change as we pore over the data.

 

Just made a recording of driving on a public server ISR server which was set up very well , I apreceat people that go to the effort and cost of making and managing servers so thanks for your work . - as you will see at first I did not notice the server was set up with safety car lol.

As for the car it has no depth do it it when on or over the limmit

You just have to be cerful on the gass to not go over the limit of the tires, there is no communication of where that limmit is so you just have to learn it in advance corner by corner.

If the car gets into a slide ( however small ) it wont come out of it , unless its just a twitch in which case you have to 100% back of throttle and then just yank steering back. ( with no real intention or procession for how you do that )

The movements of the car seem laggy and delayed if you drive with FFB off you can see its as if the car is some how dislocated from your inputs.

So yes its possible to drive the car fast but only if you drive it below the limmit of grip the way the tires handle lateral load at the limmit is as if they are made of metal or something.

In its current state the car is FUNDIMENTALY BROKEN when getting into any lose of grip situation In some ways it mirrors aspects of Pcars in that so long as you drive under the limit everything is fine, but if you go over the limit you get into wacky physics land.

Mind you when you are operating within the grip of the tires its 100% perfect and EXACTLY as i would expect the car to operate ( aside from the wacky FFB )

The only explanation I can see for people that accept this car as it is is that they think driving under the limit of grip and never going over ( even by a tiny fraction ) it is how you drive a race car. This explains how some people can defend Pcars to death in that they must drive the same way and think that if you go over the limit then its 100% slide unpredictable car time. ( granted Pcars is not even realistic when below the limmit )

Please someone show me a video of them driving where they go even slightly over the limit and begin to slide and then don't have to back of the gas stop everything and just yank the steering.

The simple fact is if you lose grip or go even a fraction over the limit you are hostage unless its a small twitch and you bring it back by simply snapping the wheel in a random manor without any real skill or intention.

you can see in my video that I'm a competent driver and I don't have "issues" with the car.

And before some people blame it on the G25 which I agree obviously has issues with RF2 ( even when using torque filter) I have driven the car and gotten the same laptimes with FFB off and perceive all the same physics issues FFB on or FFB off.

If isi dont support G25 properly ( and I don't mean just a UI element to control steering toque filter) then I would think it likely ISI will get asked for allot of refunds.

My comments are meant to help ISI they can ignore me if they want to I realise from there and other peoples perspective I'm just another sim racing idiot with my own opinion.

 

F2 Review - Part 1

well i just went on the ISR servers tonight, F2 car - 7 lap races, 15 min qual (exactly how all servers should be setup, take note).

It was my first time on all these tracks in this car (last night was my first time in the F2 car, and that was at Palm beach).

Ive posted my best laps from the online races, from Sepang and Estoril.
Fuel load - as per the race - to cover 7 laps. Setup - I can't describe a setup..... but taking the default, I reduced wing both front and rear, and softened both ARB's, and put the gear ratio's to Long. I did nothing else to the setup. I also put the brake bias back to something like 59 Front.
The setup is still pretty awful though, and I'm sure 1.5-2seconds can easily be knocked off the times I did, with more practice and a top setup.

make sure you watch it in 1080!

Estoril: best time 1.26.895

Sepang: best time 1.46.394 on the very last lap.

 

F2 Review - Part 2

a nice bonus video showing the excellent battle i had with some guy called Ismael, in the Estoril race. I tried to overtake him round the outside and squeezed him a bit too much - he spun, so I let him repass and we battled again. Its ended up being excellent promo material for RF2.......which wasn't my intention.

Conclusions.
After spending a solid 2 hours tonight with this car, my opinions havent changed, from the initial impressions I posted yesterday.

I just cannot understand how you guys can all say 'there is lots of feel'. Im going to break my summary into 2 parts - FFB, and Physics (as the 2 can be mutually exclusive)

FFB
- the steering is totally 100% loose on turn in, and on exit. There is Zero weight to it - so how on EARTH can you guys say theres any feel? I JUST DO NOT UNDERSTAND. This makes it Very difficult to be precise on turn in.

- The steering Barely pushes back to correct itself on oversteer - especially when powering out a corner. This means you have to be SO tentative and careful on the throttle, and have to entirely use visuals/sound of engine to work out When you can apply max throttle. Just to note - in all real cars, the steering DOES PUSH BACK itself, its utterly solid.

And for those of who haven't driven an single seater - well just think about it. You've got big Fat wide tyres with a huge contact patch. There should be a force pushing back, when the car is oversteering. This force was there in RFactor 1 - its barely present in RF2.

Yes, if I floor the car in a straight line, and let go of the wheel, the wheel does automatically push back the other way - so clearly theres Something there - but its just not strong enough At all. It needs to be about 20 times stronger.

Physics

- The chicane of death at Estoril Amplifies and highlights perfectly not only the fundamental problem with the low speed physics and grip, not only in the F2, but in all the cars in the game from ISI - but its even more apparent in the F2 due to the non-linear power delivery from that turbo effect.

It is just frankly awful. 1 mm too much throttle and you spin, or go into a weird sideways slide. You dont even get a chance to correct it, unless you do a weird spazzy 'sawing' action on the wheel, as you might have noticed in my vids when the back end steps out.

The entire time i'm literally driving 100% on visuals, on engine sound, and because i've learnt for each corner exactly how much throttle to apply, and when.

Hence why, as ive said in previous posts, i find the game very easy to drive fast and consistently, and its very easy for me to get up to speed immediately. This is primarily due to the lack of depth to the driving. You just learn the brake points, learn how much throttle to apply, and Go. No skill required, at all.

Here is a video of me driving a Formula Jaguar at bedford autodrome

(link to the car: http://ww2.palmersport.com/formulajaguar.aspx

Yes its not a F2 car, no where near - but its comparable to a Formula Renault, and the characteristics of the car are similar.
At some points im throwing this thing about, with total confidence. On a damp surface. On slicks.

You simply cannot do this in RF2 AT ALL. Every lap is an uncertainty in RF2, you know that if you dare apply more throttle than the grip allows, youve no chance in hell of correcting it - if not a spin, then having to lose lots of time by just coming completely off the throttle.

Fortunately because all you have to do is learn the way to drive it, its ironically very easy. Easy, but no fun in the slightest. And thats so unlike real life. SO unlike it. Where driving a racing car is the most thrilling thing ever.

One thing that became apparent, when i was battling with that guy in my vid - because of the way you have to drive RF2 to be fast...the moment you have to go offline, or overtake someone - because you have absolutely NO idea what the car is going to be like under different circumstances, I had to be so tentative and careful.

At least in RF1 it gives you confidence because you had that weight and feel, and had a good idea of what the car would do, under any circumstance.

OH yeah....and I haven't even mentioned my G25 rattling itself to death. Oh look I have.


Ive posted all these videos to show my competence in the game as well as real life.
For all of you who are saying that you're 'feeling' and loving it. Well you need to tell me your times frankly, because I dont believe any of you are actually driving fast enough in RF2 to make a valid judgement.

 

Is there option to display turbo rpm and boost pressure on screen or is those possible to log with data logging?

 

James.

I cant provide you a video...but what you see in that video is what I am experiencing with the F2.

The only time I get into slides I can't pull out of is when I have done something really stupid...gone in way to deep, keep the brakes in and keep turning.

Mid ohio...

- First corner I have gone in, slight tap of brakes, felt the back end moving and counter steered with acceleration to bring it to the right curb....no problems.

- I used the chicane version and went in without lifting, broke hard before the left portion, steered it in and broke into the right portion slowly feeding the gas to bring it to the outside curb.

- Flat out down straight hard brake to throw it into the right hander before a touch of brake for the left hander over a ridge, its gets "light" but not uncontrollable.

- We go through the next few corners and we come to the right hander over the crest and I am on the gas the whole way with a small counter steer to correct for the curb.

- Last corner in and on the gas hard, it starts to slide in the rear and I can see the curb coming so I lift and counter gently...but briefly and back in the gas away I go.

(btw this wasnt all on the one lap just examples of what I have experienced).

Honestly, what that video shows I am getting. Have I had tank slappers...for sure...but only for reasons I can completely understand (too aggressive, missed apex, bad reactions etc).

So the questions has to be...do ISI change it an annoy me, or not change it and annoy you???

 

I'm sorry but you have to provide a video or a file of your replay I cannot simply take your word for it without any evidence.

Though I'm sure you are an honest person I cannot objectively analyse what you say. Even a video is not perfect but it at least goes some way to demonstrate aspects of how a person is driving.

Allso mid Ohio is a prominently fast track the high speed puts more Wight on the tires and reduces the issues found with this car , Make a recording or send a replay file of a lap on Portugal for example.

Out of interest looking at my game play video would you say you are seeing the same things you think you see when you drive or from that real world video?

 

I can give you a video while I drive around limits with this car like I did in the past with GTR... I think F2 is better and is more visible how is possible to drive like the Nurburgring video you posted .

If you have hands to drive fast and know the car, you can go out of corners powering near full throttle with no spins, or if you lose back you can save It if you have favourable conditions and good hands (some grip lost are imposible to save, accidents happens).

PS: I'm in your video! I had an accident, near to hit you at the entrance to track, sorry! not too many laps with the car in that race... but I think I win that race, three cars front me crashed... hehehe (I only did two online, 1rst and 4th If I remember)

 

I have a strange issue when i go to drive the car out of the pit box it just stops the ai cant even drive it just wont rev at all.

 

Besides adjusting the brake bias and pressure there are setup changes you can make to help keep the back end from locking up. First off, you want to slow the rate that the weight transfers off of the rear by adjusting the dampers on the rear. I would change the rebound setting to make it stiffer on rebound and see how that goes. You can also make the front end a little softer on bump to help compensate for this.

Lowering the coast value of the differential should also help, but I am not certain that this is changeable for this car as I am not in game at the moment to have a look. If you can't adjust it, then obviously don't follow this part of the advice. It is also possible that the rear end has too much camber keeping the rear tires from being flat enough to prevent a lockup or the tires are over inflated, lowering the pressure a little should tell you if this helps.

If you are downshifting at higher rpm's and the lockup occurs when you make a shift, then try downshifting at lower rpm's to see if that helps out.

Hope these tips help you out some.

 

I was the fastest on the server but I stopped driving after 5 laps due to running out of space with fraps I think I was in second and catching when I had to stop.

So I'm clearly driving the same as you or faster so how come from my perspective I'm telling you the car is griped in when im driving and the moment it loses grip its steel/ice tires and unpredictable car time , forcing a skilled driver to simply always drive under the limit and just memorise the limit from past experiences?

Why is it that I don't have this issue in NKP,GTRevo,Race 07,GSC ,FVA .

just because you are on the power coming out of a corner does not mean the car is at any slip angle , Im not talking about simply modulating the accelerator when turning or trail braking I'm talking about having subtle control of the car at sometimes minute slip angles when also on the power and having full control over that as you do in real life.

You can clearly see in that real video that the guy is powering out of corners at very small slip angles exactly as you would expect from this sort of car.

Be good for you to upload a video non the less so I can see what you are doing

Aside from that If I'm driving to the point that I'm always in the top 3 on any server then I'm obviously not driving badly and I'm obviously at the level where I can tell what the car is doing to drive it fast.

So ether I'm driving like a pro and totally oblivious , or its as I say where you simply memorise brake points then drive under the limit at all times go into corners slightly to hot under steer 60cm or so then let the wheels grip in when they do, snap counter steer whenever you go over the limit and that's all there is to it.

Also hiohaa has posted a video of him driving a single seat car and he is saying exactly or more or less what I am saying, granted its a different car but aspects of it will be similar and all single seat cars will share certain characteristics to a lesser or grater extent.

So people are also saying that he as a real world driver is wrong as well ?

The only other possible thing I can think of is that RF2 fundimently does not work with a G25 but even then I raced with FFB off and the same issues seem to persist using visual and auditory cues to tell what the car is doing alone.

 

Reinstalled b107 and tried the default G27 profile with FFB mp at .75=a complete joke, ie, ridiculous rattlefest on track or off.
Popped in my modified profile and the game feels coarse and terrible compared to netkar{which I recently reinstalled}, and the F2 is clearly botched/unfinished, plus, it's a little gripfest compared to the F3.5.

As for netkar, just installed it, detected and set my wheel, no adjustments needed to FFB, epic as is, same with GSC 2012, which only uses a medium signal for G27, but was clearly designed properly for G27 users.
I can no longer recommend rf2 for G27 users in it's current state, OTOH, if you don't have either netkar or GSC, you'll be treated to some real magic.

IMO, fixing G27 issues is the no1 priority, all work should be directed towards that rather than producing botched content.

 

Please see the settings linked in my signature.

 

Absolutely agree with you! This beast needs some practice but is such a great pleasure to drive!
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think turbo code isn't implemented yet!
Cheers,
Oli

 

You can also adjust coast!

 

Refunds can only be granted within 2 months after purchase!
Also having an opinion is not being an idiot neither! Don't be so touchy!

By the way how come your rF2 status is not validated in the forum?

 

Telling us your opinion is one thing but don't you think there is a better way to broadcast your feelings!
How do you dare telling us this is a total joke?
Are you a real F2 driver or engineer? I don't think so! I do rather believe rF2 testers telling the community they like the general handling of a car proposed by ISI than a guy like you coming from nowhere with totally unfounded arguments aiming to destroy a product!

And since when do you need to drive on the limit to judge a general feeling! It can be done easily when catching a race pace!
The only one here providing us with an unvalid judgement is you! I'm sorry to tell you but your analysis is totally unfounded!

Of course I have no video nor data to prove you my abilities but be sure I know what I'm talking about!

Edit: I've just seen the troll has been banned!

 

Why is it that I don't have this issue in NKP,GTRevo,Race 07,GSC ,FVA .

They are finished software my friend.

 

Jamewesty.

Yeh Fraps does strange things to my system. I will see what I can do over the weekend but considering tonight I have a league race, Saturday Golf Playoff...Sunday Golf Playoff (providing I win Saturday) and also organising results for another league and an event in the coming months....I doubt I will even fire up the PC over the weekend for simming/gaming .

I dont race with the wheel on but I dont think I am moving the wheel anyware near as much as you are from your video.

The other thing that could be effecting "feel and performance" is systems, setups and performance (not implying better performance here by the way). As an example got 3 mates, we place the same setup, same config files and same settings on rF1 and we get 3 different results on our systems.

So I am in no way suggesting you are NOT feeling what your feeling. What I am suggesting is that people are experiencing different things and results. So therefore who does ISI listen to in regards to feedback?? And is it feedback they will listen to until they get things pretty much "nailed"??

 

I agree, the lateral grip drop off past peak is quite sudden, especially when combined with some longitudinal slip like on hard acceleration on low speed. This is also one of the reasons I'm slow, low 1:08s on Palm Beach, almost 8% off the pace. That's bad even for my skill level. I'm mostly driving by feel and not using conscious brake markers or turn-in points etc. if I can get away with it. As I'm not trying to memorize as much, on throttle I'm tentative, I don't want to get near that cliff as recovering is tricky. Spazzy 'sawing' action is close how I would describe it too.

When I'm lapping offline I don't care about lap times that much, so the driving can be fun. But when going online you want to be competitive and the limit behavior becomes problem if you want to be somewhat fast.