Audi R18 2012 - Wip (no release)

Discussion in 'Vehicles' started by tommy86, May 11, 2012.

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  1. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    Well, Luc is also constantly saying that you should reduce material count. No word about object count, though.

    In rFactor 1 object count was also very important, as my cube test proved.
     
  2. ethone

    ethone Registered

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    Oh yes, that's the two points I've read as well. I think advanced optimization goes beyond just material and object count though, doesn't it? ;)

    I got to the point where reducing material count became a necessity for the wrong reason anyway - 3ds max got slower and slower and more cumbersome to work with. So I atlased most of the ad texture on Fuji and Topeka and that greatly helped in 3ds max. There wasn't a noticeable increase in FPS but I'm thinking that's more because on my system material count didn't limit performance. I'm sure some people out there would have worse performance if I hadn't atlased them - and that's the point of optimization, isn't it? Making our content perform better, if possible without compromising quality at all, regardless of whether it affects us personally.
     
  3. tommy86

    tommy86 Registered

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    Definitely right ethone, it's all about optimization and test, to finde the best solution. But we need to wait for the final release to tune it perfectly, don't you think? A good starting point is always good anyway.

    Are you planning to work on LeMans too on future? :)
     
  4. Marek Lesniak

    Marek Lesniak Car Team Staff Member

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    It's not me who said that Endurance Mod eats up all of your 8GB RAM (including OS of course). Maybe you have unreleased, unseen special edition of the mod, made just for you? ;-)

    I don't care about you disliking the mod for any reason... but when you say that mod takes too much RAM just because you have some issues... I already said what might be the reason. Maybe you should go that way, rather than blaming the mod.
     
  5. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    Actually it is you :) You're saying it right now.

    We were talking about 1GB memory onboard graphics card. Perhaps you've misread.

    Anyway, we were discussing how texture sizes and geometry batching affect performance. I don't see how comments like this are in any way helpful.
    Even our discussion is at the edge of what I would call off topic, but I believe it would be helpful to tommy86 with his Audi project.
     
  6. tommy86

    tommy86 Registered

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    Oh, your discussion is really useful for all users, especially for modders I think, don't worry ;) I made some changes and optimize after reading your posts, so it's definitely useful!
     
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  7. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    I also vote for better quality. If someone's rig can't handle it, then he should set lower texture resolution in gfx settings.
    Some one said that doesn't care about texture resolution because sim is most important to him. OK - but it is not a reason to not prepare a mod to look perfect on screenshots or movies.
     
  8. Johannes Rojola

    Johannes Rojola Registered

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    You can make renders with 3DS Max, you get better results.
     
  9. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    What? 3DS MAX increases texture quality? ;)
     
  10. Johannes Rojola

    Johannes Rojola Registered

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    Virtually there is no limit because 3DS Max is not realtime, like games.
     
  11. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    You missed my point. If mod is provided only with low quality textures, 3DS MAX won't make them better.

    But I believe MaXyM also missed the point in our discussion. It's not about quality vs performance. It's about optimizing for better performance without loosing quality. That's why I talk about batching geometry, mipmaps and add/mult maps for details. There is a lot of ways to get a good looking content without spending gigabytes on textures or having to render it offline.
     
  12. Johannes Rojola

    Johannes Rojola Registered

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    Ask modder for original project textures, which usually are larger.
     
  13. ethone

    ethone Registered

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    Yes K, that's the point I'd like to get across as well. Optimization is about increasing performance without significantly sacrificing quality.
    It's also about working within the framework you have. The texture detail slider is great but forcing people to lower the texture detail for ALL textures (including the main body textures) because of poorly optimized textures of secondy or tertiary importance is the exact opposite of optimizing (sacrifices performance) and observing the framework you're working with.

    Whether good looking screenshots should be a primary concern when designing your content is probably a different discussion but I think I have made my position clear.

    For Fuji, I ran a few tests thanks to a member who had fps issues at the track and came up with some optimization to the RealRoad instances. It now runs reasonably well on his machine where it previously was a mere slideshow in places. "All" we did was decrease the size of the RaceSurface pieces (went from 15 objects to 40, counter-intuitive to what would improve performance with non-RealRoad objects as K said) and remove the LODing I had put on them. No loss of quality at all, I didn't reduce the meshes by a single poly or reduce any textures in size.
     
  14. ethone

    ethone Registered

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    Ok, here's another more extensive point. Enduracer's mod, Porsche Spyder Evo. It uses a 1024x1024 texture map for the pedals. Here's the scaled down 512x512 version I'm now using:
    View attachment 2403

    The pedals are only visible in the cockpit instance (from cockpit view). You can't see them from the default cockpit camera. I used the freeview button and lowered the cam so you can see them:
    View attachment 2404

    Even at this completely unrealistic camera angle the accelerator only stretches ~95 pixels in height. Even in the 512x512 texture map the accelerator occupies 210 pixels in height (90° turned, so 210p wide in the texture).
    So even for taking this unrealistic and highly unnecessary screenshots of pedals, a 512x512 map is overkill by a factor of 2. Never mind the original 1024x1024 one.

    Mind you I have been guilty of being too poorly informed about stuff like this for a long time. Updating Fuji was the first time I went through my texture maps and considered what size they needed to be.


    Quick questions for K:
    If a texture is mapped to a poly that is removed due to viewport culling, the map does not have to be processed at all and is merely occupying space in the VRAM, correct?
    If a texture is mapped to a poly that is removed due to occlusion culling, is the map processed in any way or is it merely occupying space in the VRAM?
     
  15. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    So let's summarize:
    - if I want to nice gfx - render it with 3Dmax
    - if I want to hear good sound, I should listen some hi-fi recordings, or maybe go to racing circuit to listen real cars
    - if I want to most realistic car handling - I should buy some racing car and try it on real track.

    So what the hell I need a simulation for?

    Today you say that you don't want good looking graphics. But in a year you will cry that rF2 is looking like a **** comparing to other titles. It is really open minded approach.

    About Enduracers mod, I believe they just forget about this texture. I would like to see modeled and better detailed device on the left side rather than pedals. But I don't think those pedals affects performance significantly
     
  16. Johannes Rojola

    Johannes Rojola Registered

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    You don't *need* simulation, but that is your compromised alternative.
     
  17. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    Compromised must not mean "looking like a s...t"
    There is no reason to agree with some other compromises than ones related to physical limitations. I really don't know who said that photo-realistic gfx or impressive sound is a domain of arcade productions only
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2012
  18. Marek Lesniak

    Marek Lesniak Car Team Staff Member

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    K Szczech, there won't be any errors when you run out of VRAM. Why? Because all the textures sit in system RAM anyway and it's having not enough system RAM available for rFactor, that is the cause of the issue.
    Having not enough VRAM "just" gives you stuttering. Nothing else.
     
  19. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    Overflowing VRAM in rFactor can cause corruption. Not only with textures but with vertex arrays aswell (even worse consequences).
    So let's end this part of discussion :)

    And MaXyM - I'll say it again - we're not talking about mod quality and personal preferences. I'd appreciate if you wouldn't fill this thread with unnecessary posts aswell.


    Simply put - let's just let people discuss things and share knowledge on mod optimization without the risk of getting flooded with off topic. And don't elaborate on things that are not essential to this discussion.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2012
  20. ethone

    ethone Registered

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    This is the stuff we're talking about though. These are things that do affect performance in one way or another, and if it doesn't hurt you personally there's someone out there whose performance hit is noticeable. It's stuff that does not quality at all. That pedal texture could be 256x256 without loss of quality at an eighth of the footprint. That's optimization stuff. It's not making stuff look bad, it's making stuff keep looking great and not wasting resources for no increase in quality.

    Sadly the pedals aren't the exception. Some dash textures are huge but barely use a third of the available space (RSSPYDEREVO_DSHLP if you'd like to check it out). A grill texture that uses about a sixth of the available space (C6_CPIT_Grill)Rims that are 1024x1024 (they would have to fill your screen to make use of that resolution, and in this case it didn't even carry any detail but just solid colors). The driver suits in 1024x1024 maps that are only ever useful for taking screenshots with them filling half the screen.

    Nobody said to make a mod look like poo to make it run better. You completely missed the point on that.
    But then perhaps maybe so did I, because I read your posts as asking for utmost quality with 4096x4096 or higher maps for everything, screw it if you even ever get to use that resolution. ;)

    Compromise must not mean "screw it I'll just use large maps, tons of materials and separate objects everywhere" and that was the point.
     
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