Getting started with a new track, few questions.

Discussion in 'Track Modding' started by Sam Moss, Jan 16, 2012.

  1. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead

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    @ Ethone

    I don't know if there is a sort of language barrier...but I feel you aggressive most of the time. I'm wrong? :)

    BTW...I'm pointing at the ALPHA CHANNELS. Those lines have a lot of NON-Zero alpha on the edges, on surface etc. I'm asking Luc (so you're not forced to reply to my questions) if there is a way to use RR without losing this aspect.

    Ciao.
     
  2. ethone

    ethone Registered

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    Yeah, you're wrong. :) Must be the language barrier indeed. Sorry if I appeared aggressive.
    Trust me, if I were aggressive I either wouldn't be answering (I'm not forced to replying as you say :)) or you would be in absolutely no doubt. When I'm aggressive I don't hold back. :D

    Should you run into any issues with your alpha channels I'm sure we could work around them.
    I use a decal for a small row of details at my track. I didn't even put the RR shader on it, it's a simple T1 with alpha blending (I'd have to look up how much opacity I put on it, IIRC it's between 50 and 70% opaque). This is how it looks during the dry with tire marks on the underlying road surface and in the wet with the reflections still shining through:
    View attachment 1455
     
  3. Luc Van Camp

    Luc Van Camp Track Team Staff Member

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    Well, you can't use pure white alpha, as this would mean there would be no wet reaction. I'd be very aggressive with pure black alpha. What I mean is you can't go too extreme with the alpha channel, as this may result in funny looking lines under wet/sunset conditions. You'll probably be forced to stay below 230 alpha to get any reflection at all. Like I said, it's a compromise, but it should be possible to get similar details.

    At this point I would personally cut out the painted lines in the track mesh and use a transparent overlay edge for those little details. A custom shader that uses the normal map alpha channel for the RealRoad stuff rather than the diffuse alpha it currently uses would be the best solution, but that's not possible right now.

    And I believe ethone is just trying to be helpful :) .
     
  4. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead

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    Ok man. Sorry for the misunderstanding. :)

    So...my point of view is easy to understand;

    Real Road use the alpha channel on the diffuse map, to manage Wet/Specular areas but I would like to use the alpha channel inside my diffuse textures to manage the blending effect between paintings and the road surface;

    - this is an example:

    View attachment 1456

    Of course...if I use this alpha on a RR painting i can't do the job...and the result is that this alpha becomes the wet/specular FX, not a blending between paintings and road surface.

    For what I can see on your example..lines are flat and I'm not searching this kind of result. I would like to preserve irregularity inside paintings avoiding old "cartoonish" style, as rF1.

    With the method inside Joesville section this kind of blending works perfect and I'm really satisfied. But, as Luc said before, could be very nice to use RR effects on paintings...as wet, grooves, marbles etc...

    Can we find a work around to get a good compromise? :)

    PS: we're working at this project with a lot of passion, as we like VERY MUCH all the new features/potentials of rF2...this is why we're searching the best way to get a good job, using all those amazing new possibilities.
     
  5. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead

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    Ok, this is a good option but this means I lose all blending FX inside paintings. I'm correct?
     
  6. Luc Van Camp

    Luc Van Camp Track Team Staff Member

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    Yes, you are correct.
    It would be both :) ! That's also what makes the balance between light/dark alpha a tricky compromise. Give it a go :) .
     
  7. ethone

    ethone Registered

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    Ah, I think I see your point. Your worry is that on the edges of the white lines decal you would have more reflection with a RealRoad shader since its alpha is full black. Have you checked if the reflections are applied regardless of the blending value of the pixel? If so, that would indeed be bad. If you can spare the half hour to test it please do, I'd love to know whether or not it's a problem.

    If it's a problem, Luc's suggestion would be one way around that. The way I did my small decal would be another. The lines are "hard" because I didn't bother fuzzying it up, it's easily possible. The RealRoad features from the road below shine through, as you can see from the screenshot I posted.
     
  8. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead

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    Guys I'm losing something on your suggestions. :(

    If I force the alpha channel inside the diffuse map (with chroma color or source alpha) the texture disappear. It seems that on Road Shader Two Diffuse Maps I can't use the alpha channel for blending purpose.

    Vice-versa....if I do not force anything and I let all Shader settings on defaults...the alpha channel it's not used to blend the diffuse but to manage the wet/specular fx.

    At this time I'm testing this method on the big 07 number with white stripes. I've modeled the entire painting and mapped with the RR method. The result is that paintings looks dark/grayish and the edge that's could be blended is 100% black.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2012
  9. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead

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    A shot (grayish instead white on paintings and, of course, edge speculars/wet instead blending);

    View attachment 1457
     
  10. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead

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    I think for now it's not a good idea to use RR on those paintings. On wet the white paint becomes very dark, as the tarmac...and I don't know if there is a way to manage (or turn off) this effect. Maybe we need another shader to use RR on Not Asphalt surfaces...

    The only nice effect I see is the wet/groove effect...but the price to pay is losing all my blendings fx and the grayish on white paintings on wet....is awful and irreal.

    So, I think we go away modeling all those paintings, using my previous shader...hoping in a future shader for Not Asphalt areas...

    Thank you for your helps guys.
     
  11. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead

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    Another screenshot to help you to understand what I mean. The wet FX is stunning...but the greyish it isn't :):

    View attachment 1458
     
  12. ethone

    ethone Registered

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    Actually I think that looks quite awesome. When wet those lines would appear less bright than when dry. Perhaps a brighter specular map could help you have the white parts reflect more and thus appear brighter. I wouldn't call it unrealistic either.
    But in the end it's certainly your decision and if you feel it's too dark for what you want from it, then you should indeed try another avenue.

    You have modeled the lines and the 07 as decals haven't you? Have you tried using a non-RealRoad shader with alpha blending for the edges and/or using alpha blending on the main parts to have the tarmac "shine through" (if that is something you want)?
     
  13. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead

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    Back scattering of those white paintings should be different than this. The greyish could be ok on Not Specular situations...as a sun occlusion due heavy clouds or stuff like this. But with the sun on the road, this painting should look bright white as on dry track. The paint used on road surfaces offer a very efficient backscattering for wet and low light situations. This is why I think my screenshot looks unreal...:)

    And yes...I've modeled the entire 07 area but for now I haven't tried to use a non RR shader on edges. We're proceding on other paintings as we looking forward for a new work-around to fix this limitations. :)

    At this time we've worked a bit on the alpha blending on all the track lines...to have a better perception of the groove line on the bottom road surface. It works fine..but I think we will putting some fake groove blending around the track to get a more realistic result.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 29, 2012
  14. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead

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    I would like to test the track in game (instead the DevMode) but the game crash due a bad AIW.

    I think there are some problems with the pitlane connection but I can't find a good solution for now. (I'm used to program inside the old AIW editor for rF1 but now there are some differences...)

    So....I have a basic Fastest AIW for the Top Gear layout...and one position pit/garage. On devmode it works fine...but when I package the track for the game...it crash. I'm sure it's an AIW issue because if I put another random AIW from another track, the game load the track correctly.

    Anyone can help me to understand how to proceed? (tnx!)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2012
  15. ethone

    ethone Registered

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    Not enough pit/garagespots? Pit path not connected to main? Corridors not calculated?

    In short you do:
    - drive a main path (middle of the road)
    - drive the pit path ("mark as first pit")
    - join the two pit path ends to the main path ("joins as a branch")
    - calculate corridors
    - drive a fast path
    - drive a left and right path
    - add pit, garage, start spots, aux spots

    If you hit some issue and you're willing to have outside help, I could create a basic AIW for you. I know AIW issues can be a big pain in the ass, I have been there a few weeks ago. So if you want to hand it off for the moment, just send me a PM. :)
     
  16. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead

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    I will try your procedure, step by step...and if I hit some issue I will ask you for a hand...

    Thanks Ethone...I really apreciate it!
     
  17. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead

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    You have a PM! :D
     
  18. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead

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    I'm encountering a very funny issue with a traffic cone.

    I've modeled the object from scratch, named as "cone_" and exported as collider and moveable.

    The issue is that the car collide only with tires (the bodycar pass through it) and sometimes the cone lose its mass, floating in the space as a man on the moon (sloooowly and rotating)...:)

    View attachment 1478

    What's going on? :p
     
  19. feels3

    feels3 Member Staff Member

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    Hi

    I'm working now with "Blended Grass Infields" shader and everything is working fine except vertex painting.

    I know about bug in 3ds max which was mentioned in Track_technology.pdf so I started blending when my geometry is finalized not before and I have noticed some strange issue.

    Like you see on pictures below vertices with alpha "0" are near kerb but in rf2 blended texture (dark sand) shows up in different place.

    I will be grateful for help.

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  20. freew67

    freew67 Registered

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    Are you using Vertex Paint in max?
     

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