The reason we need the new tire improvements in GT cars

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Nieubermesch, Aug 1, 2021.

  1. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

    Joined:
    May 18, 2019
    Messages:
    792
    Likes Received:
    403
    Those are the insane slip angles situations I was refering to also. The back of the car in those instances seem to be way to allowable with how much it can rotate without suffering the consequences of grip falling off enough. The car probably can rotate as much, but then it should be such a fast rotation that the rear, coupled with the aero plataform disturbance of such a fast maneuver, that the back should snap more out of stability. GT3 cars actually seem to have been made harder in this regard though, wich I like.

    What I also see in RL videos is that when the back is getting lost or some oversteer, it looks way to instable to not correct it and let this fix itself out like you mention in RF2. I think this is one of the allowences of RF2 in some cars that aren't realistic.

    It seems that sliding doesn't have to be the fastest driving manner, but pricesly the point that in some cars at least (with some bit of aero dependence mind you) it seems to easy to tweak some settings in setup and make the car so easy on the rear that you can throw it around like crazy that in the next lap after propper driving you are getting close to alien times and people instead of focusing on that are porpusedly focusing on that not being the fastest or not having been proven... It's not just about if it's the fastest, it's that it's an issue that extends to driving in any manner because it's allowable to let you be less focused and skilled then you should be in a crazy hotlap.
     
  2. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

    Joined:
    May 18, 2019
    Messages:
    792
    Likes Received:
    403
    Definetly all looked inside the realm of reality with some nice on the edge driving. Even if outside of realism in some instances, this I don't mind as it's too subtle. What one can see on other cars is a completly different story and why I want those tires implemented fast - implemented is adapted, of course.
     
    mantasisg likes this.
  3. leseb64

    leseb64 Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2020
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    940
    anyway there is no point in debating here if no physics dev comes to debate and no one has ever come to debate or clarify the subject of physics on the forum it's a shame...
     
    Binny, pilAUTO and Nieubermesch like this.
  4. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

    Joined:
    May 18, 2019
    Messages:
    792
    Likes Received:
    403
    Thats true :(
     
    pilAUTO likes this.
  5. pilAUTO

    pilAUTO Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2020
    Messages:
    665
    Likes Received:
    593
    This post is sane.

    Frankly it's tiring to debate between users, without the intervention of physics developers.

    Tiring to see that 5 years after the arrival of S397, physics still has little interest, whereas it should be the number one priority.

    On the other hand, when it comes to talking about PIZZA on Discord, no problem, is not it !!!!!!!
     
    Morbo and Nieubermesch like this.
  6. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

    Joined:
    May 18, 2019
    Messages:
    792
    Likes Received:
    403
    That would extend to all cars then... I don't know how well many other sims deal with this, but it's disappointing to hear this, to say the least.

    I looked at the HDV entries and I didn't find anything on that and since you confirm it with the telemetry... If I reduce the rear wing to 1 in ACC and soften the ARB I end up with just a very difficult car to not simply snap oversteer on me and it happens precisely when the car is in body roll on a tight or fast turn. GT3 cars I think now have more sensitivity. Have you tested that? The reason why I ask real proof is because people here are always doubting such claims, even if something seems fishy in the handling that might suggest something is off with tires or whatever it might impacting grip dynamics.
     
  7. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    12,345
    Likes Received:
    6,572
    Ultimately vehicle dynamics is very complex, and handling is a result of many, many factors.

    No doubt the HDV doesn't have explicit roll parameters, but roll isn't isolated - it's a result of the cornering condition, and at that point you have many other factors influencing grip, perhaps chiefly load transfer.

    There's also the question of design - you want downforce when cornering, and when cornering you have roll, so you're likely to try and maximise downforce with some expected roll rather than the perfectly flat condition. (it may not mean you don't still have peak downforce when flat, but its advantage may be reduced). The chart he-whose-name-often-changes posted earlier showed about 1.25%/deg lift loss, so it's not huge in what may be a relatively simple application (FSAE).

    I suspect roll parameters are a 'nice to have' that may ultimately have only very subtle effects on grip and handling, and would be dwarfed by any issues we currently see in tyre behaviour (hopefully less so with recent tyres) and aero height sensitivity - which itself could use better parameters.

    Finally, we need to bear in mind this all comes as a package. If you implemented perfect real life aero behaviour tomorrow in rF2, the simplified suspension system (in terms of modern cars and their attitude control systems) would probably lead to less realistic handling. Everything needs to work together, and sometimes if you concentrate too much in one area you lose the overall picture. I think we've seen that with some car releases, where presumably a number of tests looked good, but some overall effects (or edge cases) appear, at least from the outside, to be far from reality.
     
    Nieubermesch likes this.
  8. Binny

    Binny Guest

    Do any sim devs listen to users and implement the fixes ASAP ? just look at iracing v8s loose rear wing boot or bonnet no difference in any aero nothing still drive as fast, they update every month but still no FIX. I get the impression they don't listen enough to the users, they have a yearly plan set out and probably a five yr plan as well.
     
  9. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2016
    Messages:
    7,453
    Likes Received:
    4,369
    The general explanation is they catalog all issues, then sort by current priorities then file under categories like NOW, NEXT WEEK, NEXT YEAR. So if your simple hood issue affects the rF2 User Interface or Competition System or eSports...then expect a quick fix. If the hood issue only affects solo-offline users...then expect to wait...a long long time.
     
  10. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2016
    Messages:
    704
    Likes Received:
    713
    It seems that IRL, they are correcting the slide like their life depends on it, that's the level of speed and urgency. In rF2, it's sometimes a case of I simply can't be bothered to correct in such a fast way because the reward seemingly isn't there (I think I would correct in such a way though if I was in an online race).

    I find that even without any setup tweaks I can still drive in a drifty way - the pedals almost steer the car better than the steering does. It's funny becuase this is the actual reason i started driving rF2, because it was the only sim that I felt trail braked correctly. But maybe it goes too far.

    As I said I don't want to make too many judgments on realism anymore for obvious reasons. I think people who drive their road car fast do have knowledge, but driving on a track with semi slicks feels different, then I'm sure slicks feel different again, and so on.

    I feel like though (subjective fantasy) that if you gave me the keys to a gt3 race car (do they even have keys?), in a couple of laps i could tell you if rF2 was at least ball park realistic (assumeing the setups where similar). I would go into a corner at moderate speed, apply just a bit of steering input and brake. Does the car rotate hard towards the apex? In slow corners (heck even coming out of my pit stall), does the car rotate like buggery on partial throttle with no wheelspin? Can I reliably mat the throttle mid corner and just control the beast through corner exit, or does it spin violently like a top? I'm sure there would be many grey areas, but I've driven rF2 so much I think I could tell pretty fast.

    I am always pretty dissapointed at the response from RL drivers when they compare it to the sim, their analysis is not very detailed. It's often "yes the sim is fantastic for keeping me sharp and learning my line, all the braking points are the same" or some such thing which is totally fine because they are in an interview or something. But it's never "In RL going into this corner If I downshift at this point and turn the wheel thirty degrees and brake at 50%, the car rotates this much." Eg specifics of the actual handling traits.
     
    Sim_Player and Nieubermesch like this.
  11. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

    Joined:
    May 18, 2019
    Messages:
    792
    Likes Received:
    403
    Everything you are saying seems to make sense to me, but I am no expert and prone to get things wrong. I've been hearing about wrong things with aero on S397 cars, but not quite extensively explained - even if it could be even more extensive... @Lazza confirmed that those effects on aero are not present so thats something out of the way. How negligent they can be or not as he says would remain for me to be seen. He gave numbers looking at the chart wich I didn't really look so well at since I am lazy and not really trained :D.

    I mean, it's a very complex system of interactions, cars that is. You also mentiom effects of wing degrees and what not and seemingly displaying wrong behavior. I want to take your word for it as there is something not quite right when driving and looking at some driving, but I would need to really be sure about aero behavior to say more. It's something more elusive to me then tires to be honest, although it might not be...

    The end result of seemingly softer ARBs for great mechanical grip and also lowering rear wing does seem like an OP combination if not being punished by the consequences that would have in reality. I can sort of imagine and have an educated guess at it, but I should refrain from stating squarly how I feel and think it should be.
     
  12. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

    Joined:
    May 18, 2019
    Messages:
    792
    Likes Received:
    403
    Yeah, it's frustating Sim Racing. It's very complex and all sims have problems. One sometimes gets too passionate about it - with good intentions though. Sometimes things just go a little to ridicullous in terms of the plausible handling of something and can't quite get ignored, be it to make cars easier of harder to drive. Not sure wich is worse. Will depend on the person I guess.

    You mean @Sim_Player ? Can we change our name in the forum? Is that a thing? I don't like mine so much anymore...

    You counter balance some of the detracting we see on the forums, with myself included, so do you have something you could say about aero effects of the cars @Sim_Player says are wrong in the things RF2 is controlling? He mentions more then just the influence of a missing aero rolling sensitivity, so I would like to hear a different view.

    Thanks and sorry if I get under your skin sometimes... :D:D
     
  13. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

    Joined:
    May 18, 2019
    Messages:
    792
    Likes Received:
    403
    Can't quite be sure one could really test the handling quite extensively to see if RF2 is realistic all the way, as we would probably crash the cars trying some of those feats... Some would be safer to try I guess :D:D.

    Yeah, ACC is known to have a slow slide that can get impossible to save, but slow. RF2 seems to have faster ones in most situations, but I feel they are a bit on the safe side, not quite accelarating as much the rotation of the car on a oversteet moment as I would think it should - on certain cars, mind you (GT or even some prototypes or cars with slicks by S397).

    They do seem to allow some bug slip angles that feel like drifting the rear around. Is this what you feel too? It bothers me more then certain easy slides too catch. Makes it a bit lazy and I don't have to be so sharp with my driving.

    Normally those real life pilots really do some general statement wich might be true or not, unfortunately :(.
     
  14. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2016
    Messages:
    704
    Likes Received:
    713
    Speak for yourself, I wouldn't crash :p

    Simply put if I was tasked with giving S397 subjective real world feedback regarding handling, the first thing I'd do is go to a skid pan and test out how much 'brake vectoring' i.e how much rotation occurs during braking at various phases of the cars limit, below the limit, at the limit, slightly over the limit.

    You could be a bit more objective and collect data that measures the yaw, then compare with the sim.
     
    Nieubermesch likes this.
  15. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,926
    Likes Received:
    3,876
    I think developers are right for not listening to users ASAP. Let me explain. I have been developing mods myself too, including physics. I do it as honestly as I can, trying to do it as realistic as I can, do you think after months of work will I immediately agree to do changes based on some feedback from guys who spent less than ten minutes with what I have been doing for several months ? No !!! When I get feedback, it usually leads to me arguing why I did what I did. If I was wrong it usually takes from hours to months to honestly agree with criticism. Sometimes I never become fully sure. What it tells about me ? It tells that I am super honest, wonderful, perfect human being :D Alright, it just tells that I am honest, and did what I believe myself.

    What instant reaction to people feedback tells about some developer ? What does it mean if developer who worked on simulation for months of years, does a U-turn in physics as soon as first bunch of unhappy people complaints about something ? It tells that they either didn't have any clue themselves to begin with, or they just rush to adjust to people likes ASAP. It doesn't speak as honesty to me. Unless an issue is so glaring, and so obvious and undeniable, I see no reason why a dev should quickly shift to some other way, just because some random people told them to do it.

    So to conclude, I think developers definitely listen, even iRacing devs. And I think it is fine that they don't take actions ASAP, but rather waits for sufficient certainty level. Just hopefully doesn't abandon the project. Not only that, it is much more complex for them, there are teams of developers, there is management, and they still must remain appealing to their userbase and hopefully grow it while also remaining stable and having everything in as much neat order as possible, otherwise it would be just chaos. Everything is important.
     
    Binny and Nieubermesch like this.
  16. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2016
    Messages:
    1,320
    Likes Received:
    3,121
    The complexity of sim racing is what makes it interesting from my perspective, otherwise we wouldn't have this niche but all racing games driving like NFS or flying games playing like Hawx. You basicly have one common task - aka simmulating a car - but you have a multitude of different approaches and models for it. In that sense the first step is to realize that we are allways talking about models, because that way you get away from the "is it realistic?"-paradigm. The only question that is interesting is how good the approximation is.

    In the case of rF2 it's in some cases so complex that it's hard to define where a specific issue really is. Even something like the material of the rim is taken into consideration. So when I read that tires are all wrong and that the physics are broken I can do nothing more but shake my head. If we go that far we could say that all racing sims available are broken. But it is important to isolate issues, as Lazza suggested. Funny example: everyone complains how driving with lowest possible preassures isn't realistic, because their favorite sim XYZ doesn't do it like that. Then you see tyres failing in F1 and people like Guenther Steiner telling on TV how going with lowest tires preassures is the way to go. But the issue doesn't stop here. If rF2 was "realistic" we could underinflate tyres, they would collapse and race directors/admins/devs would have to give minimum tire pressures to avoid this.

    If we extend that thought it's also pretty obvious why people would drive the way they drive and get away with it. There is no damage simulated so while going over curbs, gravel or - something that would be a dream and make safety cars more valuable in sim racing - going over debri. Another very important factor is the lack of proper track and ambient temps. The default track temp is at 25-ish degree, wich is relatively cold. In European midsummer (so racing season) we get into the 40-50 degree range easily wich makes the proper compound and choice of preassure a different challenge and wear might be alot higher with those temps. There are so many factors involved that it's easy to see how one would get carried away. So in that sense, it might be well worth to take a deep breath and not only embrace how far we have come in sim racing - it's not frsutrating it's amazing - but also double check what we really need.

    So to come back to your topic and "question": do we really need new tire improvements for GT cars? Or might it be better to tackle global factors like track temps that affect every car before we go back to the drawing board for a few of them?
     
    pkelly likes this.
  17. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    12,345
    Likes Received:
    6,572
    @hitm4k3r what's that? Punctures caused by debris? You mean like in rFactor (1)? :p
     
    Nieubermesch likes this.
  18. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

    Joined:
    May 18, 2019
    Messages:
    792
    Likes Received:
    403
    If I was tasked to do that I would be an happy man and probably wouldn't be complaining about RF2 shortcomings here :D:D:D.

    Driving my street car a bit on the edge sometimes I get the excitement of feeling like I could be playing with my luck to how sketchy things feeling, but it's also a assisted steering, but I can feel the car sort of "float" a bit in a certain turn I can test this and not with a lot of speed. I've also drove it quite fast for what the car is on a highway and felt the same and the wind effects sometimes are pretty scary...

    It's a separate thing, but I think the tire skidding sound of some S397 also don't help to feel the urgency of a slide. In real life and some other mods it could just be the sound, but that whine really puts you on the edge, while with GT3 or GTE they feel like just scrubbing around a bit...
     
  19. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

    Joined:
    May 18, 2019
    Messages:
    792
    Likes Received:
    403
    Don't get me wrong, I think the complexity and advancement of simulations is exciting, but because we are dealing with simulations it's still frustrating we might have some strange unrealistic behaviors because, well, it's not so easy to have the Sim really have all the variables of real life. Although for me some things in RF2 are not implemented yet because of what seems to me misguided attention - or excessive - to other aspects also important. I would like, like you say, to see some of those implementations, mostly the track temperatures being dynamic. This is such an odd absence for a sim like RF2...

    I will buy every DLC that might come - unless it doesn't really interest me - if they start really showing the commitement to advance features of physics. I feel I might lose a bit of the love and excitement for RF2 and it's future being a supporter of it if they continue to neglect and take too long with some things. It's sad though, it's the one with the biggest potential for me. S397 are not ISI, so I am afraid some of the other companies around or new ones might come with a software that can blow some of the best features of RF2 out of the water and I wished they leveled up their physic engine before that happens, as it might be too late to catch the train by then..
     
    avenger82 likes this.
  20. RaceNut

    RaceNut Registered

    Joined:
    May 21, 2013
    Messages:
    659
    Likes Received:
    539
    Tire sounds are a big part of grip-loss detection but, slicks are said to produce more scrub sound than squeal. I think most of us can relate better to tire-squeal sounds and they produce a much wider range of intensity.
     
    pkelly and Nieubermesch like this.

Share This Page