Poll: Is this driving realistic?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Nieubermesch, Jan 23, 2021.

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Is this driving realistic?

  1. Yes

    31.6%
  2. No

    68.4%
  1. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Important thing to add. I dind't post F1 saves or behavior. I would go to say that open wheels are behaving much better than the cars shown. I am certainly sure such a stiff car like those F1 are very very difficult to save. Even a video from Alonso comes to mind, that he drove his car on a way everyone seemed appaled by it, but it was accomplished by some tricky setup changes.
     
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  2. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    Yes, I know perfectly well what my position is on the subject, it is clear and I have largely established it: as long as there is no formal proof, all that can be said is hypothesis or opinion, nothing more.

    I also say that as soon as some people see "incomprehensible" behavior in a simulation, they talk about "faulty physics", whereas when they see what happens in reality, it sometimes goes beyond what simulators do strange.

    I had posted a video in which an Audi R8 LMS stopped for a few meters after driving through gravel and then grass, just to highlight the fact that the tires of these cars have crazy performance despite what we could read on the forum, basically that people had a completely crazy idea of the performance of these tires.

    So I don't understand when he talks to me about this Audi because I don't think he discussed it any further, I think he's confusing me with someone else.

    I'm careful not to make judgments about one or the other, the only things I respond to are unfounded opinions and statements without any real argument. This reminds me of an article published in France about the fact that 7 out of 10 French people believed in the conspiracy theory, whereas when you see the way the subject was treated, it was easy to go up to 10 out of 10, it would have been enough to add one or two questions and everyone would have answered "yes" at least once. Like the initial poll, I find the process intellectually dishonest, that's all I'm saying.


    EDIT : @mantasisg Frankly, I think the reason is more my pathetic english than your comprehension, I have really hard time making my point as precisely as I could in French so when I thjink someone misunderstod me, I don't hink he is the one to blame usually, unless my point was clearly stated. Not sure this makes sense :p
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  3. John R Denman

    John R Denman Registered

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    The Corvette was close on the lines but lacked fidelity in the curb pitching.

    The LMP car seemed a bit abrupt in response and lacked fidelity in curb pitching as well. Moreover the double clutch would need a clutch replacement every hour, they aren't designed to shift like that. One tip on driving an rF2 LMP2 car is to tune the throttle sensitivity so you can blip the throttle on downshifts without clutching without over-revving as the throttle turndown ratio is set way to strong.

    Both cars also seemed to have a notable response lag which could have been the PC it was running on, I don't have that lag on mine.

    Another point I've observed ever since the LMP2 cars & Sebring & Spa 66 were released but may not have mentioned is the carcasses feel far more compliant over bumps than they really are as well as having less thermal inertia than the really have. I suspect thats to level the skills across the field to encourage more on-line racing.

    Finally the grooved F1 tires were notoriously hard to drive as they had very little reserve in them.
     
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  4. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    @Yzangard Thats completely fair, and you are right.

    By the way, I do not confuse you with someone else regarding Audi R8 video. You used that as an evidence of high performance of these tires. But I had some points about how such high performance could make the handling tricky in particular cases, of which happened exactly to be in that Audi video (where Audi had little tankslapper, then went off the track, managed not to crash, spun a bit when it came back on the track, and when it gripped into stand still it did impressively strongly), it basically prooved that there was quite a bit of difference between sliding friction and static friction.

    @Nieubermesch You are right. We "drifted" a bit away from being precise and got slightly abstract. To fix the things and to compare apples to apples, here is a video from your opening post, and RL video.




    It is very obvious how rF2 onboard is driven on abussive manner, a ton more forcing whole car to slide sidways.
    IRL video shows that the car indeed is playful (very fun to watch that onboard, looks visibly on the limit), but the car goes firmly planted, and whe nit slides it does so in short impulses, driver is catching it very quickly, and quickly straightening back. Only at the slower turn the car is a bit more happy at sliding, but still looks fairly planted and eager to switch to full grip quickly. I also did not observe any "diagonal" full sidways four wheel drifts, and it makes sense it is an aero car with beefy slick tires, it is not 60s racecar with barely any downforce and hard compound bias-ply tires. And I'd say even those 60s cars didn't drive like in that rF2 onboard LMP2 drives, 4wd rally cars drive like that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  5. Dave^

    Dave^ Registered

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    On a scale of one to ten, how "real" do you expect £25 of software to be?

    Even if you add £5 for a DLC car and another £10 for a track.
     
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  6. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    You're right about people not being able to discern what is and what isn't real behavior, and no one can really say for 100% certainty what is different from reality to a simulation, as it would presume we know everything in play when anything "real/physical" happens. Altough, there are certain things one know for damn sure can't happen, I am pretty sure. I think it was you that've been saying Iracing will slip for so long under a slide coming out of low speed and you have no issue determinig it's wrong... So what's up with that double standard? (If it was indeed you, sorry if not)

    I don't think I am trying to be dishonest at all. I can add more examples but I also said to not vote if they really can't tell at all or at least go and take a good look and being careful what they look at. There is also the other thread where we've already pinpointed some ways to not avaliate when looking at real life examples. Of course I am on the side that Rfactor2 it's going beyond whats possible, and not just by little, as some behaviors are not subtle at all in my opinion and there is also some good telemetry findings on the other thread too, and that's why I referred to it. If I wanted to be biased then I would come here and not give any caveats at all. If nothing else let people take a look at some real life examples and think and search themselves.
     
  7. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    True though, but I guess perhaps it was due tires compound and maybe construction. Could also have been aero sensitivity to yaw.

    I have read Paul Haneys book, there was an interview with Bridgestone engineer. What he said there was basically that grooves was there to make the tires, less peaky, more drivable. So grooves themselver wasn't causing difficulty.

    @Dave^ So we aren't worthy because we should pay more ? I should also rethink the reasons why I do modding then.
     
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  8. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    The thing is that what happened to him happened to me, but I think it's because of the force I put into the FFB, the steering wheel hits that I take cause this kind of behavior that's hard to control, when you see players getting more control, almost supernaturally, it can just come from the fact that the force in their steering wheel doesn't cause these parasitic movements that destabilize the car. I can be wrong, I don't see any objective reason for this and it is of course a notable difference with reality.

    I don't know if I had answered these words, I probably answered without understanding what you were telling me, it happens to me so often to make counter-senses that it's not even fun to talk about it anymore :)
     
  9. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Yep, certainly my thoughts exaclty ;) I've learned some things on the other post I used to mix up, but now that I have a more estructured view of the behavior and specific states of the cars we are talking about, one can't just go to youtube and watch them slide and saying, oh well, after all cars slide, Rfactor 2 is realistic!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

    I honestly mostly feel very happy that I've learned so much in such a short time :) Hopefully I don't sound conceited, as it's not my objective, quite the opposite, just that I humbled myself to look much closer at things now.
     
  10. Yzangard

    Yzangard Registered

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    Precisely, what I think about iRacing is my opinion, I can't prove what I say because I don't have access to telemetric data to support my hypothesis, so I just give my opinion, to be taken for what it is : just my opinion :)

    My opinion on iRacing is the reason why I don't go on iRacing anymore but it can come from so many things other than the physics of the game that I don't necessarily blame the game, my FFB is so "fake" that I think I have a configuration problem anyway, because the FFB in iRacing is normally not bad at all.

    When I was talking about dishonesty, it's again a typing mistake on my part, I meant the initial poll that was misleading, an answer was almost naturally imposed, not your answers :)

    Sorry if you took it for you, it really wasn't my goal.
     
  11. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Adding this here, as it's not a replay, because replays don't really show the full scope of physics at play. People should be carefull when looking at those, as some replays look weirder than what I am really trying to point about Rfactor 2. I've tested capturing real time and replay laps and there really a difference on the feel on takes from each one.
     
  12. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I honestly don't even know how much that compliance from the cars (coming from suspension or other thing) can be related to how forgiving cars can sometimes be, if forces aren't acting strongly enough to make the cars more unpreddictable. I feel humble to talk to you about such things because you've already demonstrated enormous knowledge on physics though, so when replying try to not be rough ahah, but would like what you think about that possiblity :)
     
  13. RDG

    RDG Registered

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    Driving like that irl would cause excessive tire tearing, S397 should implement that mechanic so we can bin this discussion.
     
  14. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    looks like you are still not over that trauma. Maybe focus more on game improvement if your abilities allow you to do so.
     
  15. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    Weren't the grooved tires introduced to reduce corner speeds at that time? Please corrent me if I am wrong but I remember safety being an important factor for their existence. If you make tires more drivable you get the opposite actually. And don't forget the tire war between Bridgestone and Goodyear at that time. This certainly had big impact on tire performance.
     
  16. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I don't think it's only that.
     
  17. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    Good thread, ofcourse the answer is NO. and ofcourse fanboys will brush off such obivious flaws they can't get out of their bubble lol. look at the excuses, they make. These guys are asking customers to dive deep into problems (like we have access to data or code lmao). Telemetry AIN't proving the problem BECAUSE problem is not DATA it is the execution of data so telemetry will always shows "correct " result as it is basically giving out what data is inputed in code NOT THE FAULTS IN CODE/PHYSICS.
    simple FACT is fanboys bring everything down.
     
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  18. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Oh my god, everytime you speak the amount of thing you don't understand increase. Now you are going to explain us how computer programs work, and how telemetry output is made.... and means nothing.. great!
     
  19. MarcG

    MarcG Registered

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    These threads are just continuing to go round and round and round and round in circles. Be good if people just got on and did their talking on the Race Track instead of relentlessly trying to "get one over" everyone else, a few people here have become extremely boring in their relentless need to point out issues then shout anyone down who dares disagree or even show agreement with them!

    Get on track and enjoy what we've got or race another Sim, it's really not that difficult.

    Regardless of peoples viewpoints labelling people "fanboys" is incredibly pathetic, we're all fans of the Sim and all want the best from it.
     
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  20. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    He just mean that there is a finite amount of performance that you can squeeze out of a piece of equipment. Do you expect a 300$ drill to perform like a 30$ one? Surely not, but why professional teams build simulator worth millions if RF2 can be equally performing?
     
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