Does sliding the car get punished in Rfactor2

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by David O'Reilly, Jan 15, 2021.

  1. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Do you think I did the Mazda a little bit dirty? :p:cool: It seems all cars can be drift on Rfactor 2 :rolleyes::rolleyes:

     
  2. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I think a lot of posts now are just going down rabbit holes and missing the big picture.

    You're sliding a car around, but you're not going fast. Punishment for sliding isn't just getting put into a wall - losing time counts too.
     
  3. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Don't get me wrong, I was just having a bit of fun :cool: I think I've already made clear my passion for Rfactor2 and the way I drive is nothing like that.
     
  4. John R Denman

    John R Denman Registered

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    Kind of amusing actually. Last time I drove that track was on a Honda FL400 Pit quad just before the new pavement went down it was about 45 minutes north of me in Raleigh NC. Part of the team Highball days, we also had Mazda factory sponsorship. Relocated to Dallas just before it was paved.

    Not sure what you were getting at though. I find the 787 to be far more controllable in a drift, probably my setup, but being a recent geezer graduate I would expect you should have better slide control than me. Maybe not.
     
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  5. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Oh, don't take it seriously, I just wanted to show that I could even slide this bad boys around and the setup was just default. I quite like this one actually. What I think is bothering me is some light feeling on center of FFB of this cars.
     
  6. Bruno Gil

    Bruno Gil Registered

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    Ok, now that I've seen this video, Im finally sure that what I was thinking is happening here.
    Your perception of sliding is off. And by this I mean: even when you say youre "drifting", youre barely sliding: as soon as you get a TINY bit of understeer of oversteer , you correct it.

    EDIT: or, lets put it like this: while other sims only offer traction loss feedback when you are starting to go over the ideal slip angle - 5 to 7 degrees for most cars - rf2 will start giving you feedback for sliding as soon as the tires reach 1 degree slip angle (this last number is an illustration)... Maybe this way it'll make sense. Pretty sure this is the #1 reason for this whole debate around physics.

    To drive a car fast, the cars NEEDS to be sliding over the whole corner: entry, apex and exit.

    Even in Assetto Corsa and stuff you HAVE to slide the car to be fast. it's just that the feedback when sliding in rF2 is a lot more "defined"

    I would advise you to watch Driver61's channel, and this video right now comes to mind:


    This is the reason I believe Dave asked for a lap time from Slip_angel...

    Wanna test this? Set your FOV to approximately what youd see in an onboard video - say 50 or so -, turn off the tire sounds, and see what you think. let me know.

    Las edit: i should also add you're depriving yourself from the best feeling this sim offers: the feeling of the tires scrubbing underneath you as you throw the car into a corner and it slides along a perfect line....
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
  7. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    It's quite late for me now. Tomorrow I'll give you my comeback, but we are actually quite in tune with what we both think and I do know and saw on videos the cars having that perfect line (rotation). I feel it in my car sometimes too, when I am doing roundabouts here in Portugal and have to go for a curved line :D:D
     
  8. Bruno Gil

    Bruno Gil Registered

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    THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I never wanted to say anything because people... well, lets see, but my main reason for rf2 being my simulator of choice is the feeling of getting a car to slide in the sim, and in IRL karting, and in just hooning my own car around roundabouts or country roads is VERY similar, and definitely much more similar than any other sim I've tried so far. Before sliding, pretty much every sim is the same, but rf2 just takes over when youre driving the actual limit

    EDIT: you didnt quote the part about the slip angle, so just make sure you read it, might make stuff a little more clear
     
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  9. David O'Reilly

    David O'Reilly Registered

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    I'm not sure cars are "built around" having assists. How would that work? Setup- yes, I deal with that in my post.
    Driving on 3 wheels is a strange example. 4 wheels is a basic engineering requirement not an assist.
    I don't see anybody saying assists slow a car down or make it harder to drive. Of course they offer performance benefits.
     
  10. JamesB

    JamesB Registered

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    Getting back to your original subject David, I am fairly new here but used to be into sim racing years ago and used to use Motec to help me set up GT Legends cars as its the historical stuff that interests me most. So I have been messing around with it again here (partly with the help of your YT videos). As I am still learning how these cars drive in this sim I have been hurling them around with reckless abandon and sliding a lot and I have no issue with that as the old stuff tended to be perfectly capable of being driven like that, however my reasons for doing it are more to do with trying to go fast but being caught out by a lack of familiarity with both cars and tracks. I have found that while I can go faster than the AI, my tyres fall off a cliff after far too few laps because of driving style and the Motec data shows it. However on a couple of tracks that I have learned properly I can be much less aggressive with the tyres whilst not sacrificing lap time significantly and obviously get a lot more out of the tyres, on longer races this is obviously the difference between a podium finish and an extra pit stop and being at the back.
     
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  11. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    Not kill you, but at the same time, not be able to drift it like it's in an episode of Initial D.

    At the risk of derailing this topic: Sorry, but just because you don't use traction control or ABS doesn't mean you're a more 'hardcore' sim driver, or just a better driver all round. ABS and TC are tools, not talent replacers.
     
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  12. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I still have to watch the video but I even think I've saw it once but surely didn't paid enough attention as I will now.

    I am on the camp that Rfactor2 is simulating those things more complexly and extensively than any other title too and the physical tyre helps with that, I am sure, as one would instinctively guess that a tyre model imported to a virtual world that comes with a physical build can match physical behaviours more closely, if done right of course. So all those behaviors I also love, at certain points should be adjusted to be more unforgiving to a certain point, requiring more attention from the driver and microadjustment, so that's just where I am placing my criticism most of all.

    Also, I already been changing FOV and it certainly shows Fov can be a really tricky thing to fool us about the car rotation. I think AMS2 uses a different FOV (not vertical I think) and because of that, when I tried that and 33 fov is what I normally use, it made me feel the cars were rotating like crazy, freely... Than just some days ago I noticed that and although AMS2 has some many other issues for me, that was mostly fixed.

    Oh, let's not forget that road tires are a bit different ;)

    Edited some more:

    Also, I didn't meant to mean I will not slide the cars at all, I push them to that limit but don't let the cars go into exploitative territory.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
  13. Bruno Gil

    Bruno Gil Registered

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    the problem in my view is, what you and other drivers consider "exploitative territory" is nothing close to that... In fact it isn't even sliding at all, from what I could see in your video. This is seen clearly in your tire temp graph. If you get the tires to ideal slip angle, and cambers and ok-ish, all three patches of rubber shown in the graph will climb FAST to around high 80 to low 100ish,and stay there, unless you overslide it.

    Aidan, I'm honestly not aware of any "drift it like initial d" video, but I must confess I didn't see them all... Most of the posted video are taken out of context anyway... I still think the "problem" here is the perception of rotation/sliding
     
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  14. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Well, I think some people don't really like to recognize the problems in their sims. I know I am like that, as I want to feel as if it is perfectly fine. I think there is the problem of perception too, but there is a forgiveness to the sliding of tyres in my opinion and how much I can recover the car from certain situations I don't think I should be getting away with. The only way to know for sure would be to be able to jump on the same cars and try to make the same happen. For the information I also use high FFB of what at least a T300 can offer, wich might not be enough to make slides more dangerous than they are, as rotation on the steering wheel will be slowed down and that can help...

    I will say that in other sims when I try to make cars drift a little bit like I am doing in some videos would feel as if the suspension or something are making them snappy as hell. Might just be the tyres dampen those forces at some ranges. Can't really compare to other sims for obvious reasons though. The only people who can really comment on this are the ones that tried to slide and drift some of the machines with a somewhat stiff suspension and high downforce that is appropriate for racing.
     
  15. Bruno Gil

    Bruno Gil Registered

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    I, too, have already hypothesised that over a single lap, maybe two or three laps, the sliding seems too permissive, and even posted a theory on why, but it got lost in the middle of a certain user's propaganda...
    However, as its in the beginning of this topic, this is NOT sustainable for a race.

    EDIT: the snapiness fits with my description of ffb difference from rf2 to competitors: since you only get sliding feedback in competitors when you go past the ideal slip angle, when the car is about to bite because you're lowering you're slip angle, it will feel like an on-off switch. In rf2, since you get this kind of sliding feedback as soon as a little bit of slide happens, you're still getting that same feedback when the slip angle is reducing, which feels smoother and can help you control the load on the tires

    To the knowledgeable ones: any way to get tire slip angle from telemetry data?
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
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  16. John R Denman

    John R Denman Registered

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    No worries on my skill level particularly being a recent Geezer Graduate. After 40 years of active motorsports participation there is nothing left to prove in a sim. As for ABS & TC they are definitely talent enhancers and mask many driving errors, as well as establish a reliance on them and mute the driver's ability to improve.

    Most of the cars with built-in TC also tend to have a very limited list of setup options, as few folks in the sim world have much more than a very primitive understanding of setup. That is in fact why the two threads on tires and physics even exist at the moment.
     
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  17. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Not to sound too rude, but you are a bit of an arrogant a**. Just so you know :p:rolleyes:
     
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  18. Bruno Gil

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    On the aids thing: I'm pretty sure I heard one of British gt commentators (the one who does the F1 tech talk videos) saying at a race that James Baldwin actually uses TC off or sometimes the minimum setting, and very low ABS aswel, unlike most drivers in that field.

    I am also of the opinion that aids hinder your ability to improve, if that's what you're going after. I also think they can cost some pace, but. That might work different in RL, I don' Know. In an endurance race however, I see their place
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
  19. John R Denman

    John R Denman Registered

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    Indeed. Earned qualities of becoming a Geezer. :)
     
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  20. Bruno Gil

    Bruno Gil Registered

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    Honestly we need more people here stating the obvious... I get the feeling, since these threads started, that most experienced people look at the threads, roll their eyes, and don't even bother posting
     
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