rF2 FFB system and philosophy

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DrivingFast, Nov 4, 2020.

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  1. FERNANDO CABRERA

    FERNANDO CABRERA Registered

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    I'm with you at this.
    Actually I have an g27, considered old by today's standards, I add to my pedals rumble motors to feel wheel sliding in the accelerator and wheel lock at the brake, a couple of cheap badsstransducers to add some rumble effects to my chair.
    I don't feel the ffb effects on the wheel or my pedals, or chair effects as intrusives, of course a car won't have some of those effects and I'm complementing what i can not feel using some other way of informing my body that is happening. Realistic, maybe not.. immersive heck yeah. Do i feel connected to the car? A lot more than only using the wheel.
     
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  2. Cote Dazur

    Cote Dazur Registered

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    Could you explain how something un-realistic can be immersive?
    helpful, I can understand, but any un-realistic effect trough the wheel or otherwise is the polar opposite to anything immersive.
     
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  3. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Starting from the obvious that a simulation CANNOT equate reality (otherwise it would be reality as you could not distinguish them). Our brain does a level of input analysis and like in Synesthesia, I think it is able to translate inputs that have little correlation with a real effect, into the effect they substitute. Just like the brain is able to be fooled to make you feel sensations of a limb that is not your's , it can rebuilt his reality where the rumble effect that Fernando use, are the real deal, because they have a connection with things that happen into the simulation, and the brain will start to believe them. Just like that FFB driving seat that has actuators to push on your back, can create the illusion of lateral acceleration if coherent with the rest of the simulation.
    Even with a simple FFB wheel, each little effect like a tap on the wheel when you pinch a curb with a tire, make sense if you know you are about to hit a curb and expect a feedback from it. With closed eyes you could probably not understand what just happened (maybe you can due to experience, because that tap has specific characteristics).
    With this I want to say that if the simulation if able to generate a rich sensorial experience for the brain, if can easily make you feel connected. I think the rate of such feedbacks is just as important as their quality, because they have to flood the brain without pause.
     
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  4. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Misattributed quotes, especially because so many people give more weight to them when they think someone famous or "smart" said them. I've seen Einstein quoted in fields Einstein had no expertise in, and people still don't question it. In these days of the internet where knowledge and truth should be so much more accessible, people take less and less time to check things.

    At the core of it, someone at some point grabbed a quote, perhaps altered it a little, then put it up somewhere with " - Einstein" after it. That's the bit that gets my goat :D
     
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  5. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    What Comante said.

    A simple gamepad vibration over rumble strips and kerbs adds to immersion for gamepad users even though it's not realistic to feel kerbs just with your fingers.
    Driving games 30 years ago had silly digital engine sounds, even beeper sounds with almost no resemblance to real sounds but many of us were happy to have it.
    Because hearing the engine revving is important feedback that real drivers have and it was adding to immersion no matter how unrealistic those sounds were.

    Finally it comes down to personal preference.
    Similar to arguments about billboards. There are people who can't stand billboards with developers studio names on historical tracks and then again there are people who don't mind and would rather have fake billboard than no billboard at all on places where these were placed on a real track.
     
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  6. Binny

    Binny Guest

    @Lazza Roughly the 1st 20 yrs of our life we are told to research to gain knowledge funny after we move into the adult world we just except MSM for our knowledge never question it and do what we were taught research. Knowledge shared is knowledge gained, knowledge kept is knowledge wasted.
     
  7. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Fernando, I'm interested in how you made your transducer work, I have this idea to make something similar , and would like to know more.
     
  8. memoNo1

    memoNo1 Registered

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    :D
    Yep yep mate, all fine.:D:cool:
     
  9. Pawel44

    Pawel44 Registered

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    I'm not really into philosophical bull*hit and I was talking about Einstein theories which are flawed and contradictory. Let's focus on reality and actual problems with driving model in rF2. What I'm blaming here was already mentioned in another thread:

    https://forum.studio-397.com/index.php?threads/compendium-of-needed-improvements.67381/

    Some problems are present since years afaik and there's no even a bug tracker, so we don't know if developers are going to fix them or pretend everything is fine and release another DLC. There may be some tweaks needed in ACC, but it's not flawed in its model. rF2 has greater potential, because of mesh modeled tires, but currently it's broken in some way. It needs to be fixed.
     
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  10. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    You may not be into philosophical BS, BUT can I point out your apparent lack of coherency?
    You are in short saying that ACC has his shortcomings, but they can be addressed (in your opinion, because developer have not addressed them), but because RF2 has greater potential, HIs shortcomings make it broken, because RF2 is better than ACC. You are saying something like that:
    ACC is 80% and can grow to 85%, while RF2 is 83% but can grow to 90% thus RF2 is broken.
    What I see is that RF2 is 3% better than ACC in current state of things, so in my opinion is ACC that is broken.
    What you see is that ACC is just 5% far from his limit, while RF2 is 7% out, making it worse (but better) in your eyes.
     
  11. FERNANDO CABRERA

    FERNANDO CABRERA Registered

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    I'll post photos later today, is a simple setup
     
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  12. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    But what is not to trust when someone points out a simple exploit in a sim? You don't have to be a physics expert to do that. Most exploits are easily testable and can be verified. There are many such exploits in rF2. To deny it "because rF2 has great physics" is delusional.
     
  13. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    But a the same time, exploiting an unrealistic setup that break the physic simulation is up to your will to do that, this does not defeat the physic accuracy per se , it show that the software has holes that can be exploited to gain unrealistic results. I don't know how to feel about that.
     
  14. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    LOL So now you're physics expert? I bet you don't even really understand general theory of gravity. I'd guess 1 in 100k or so people really do. Only physicists that are in the field really understand it deeply after years of learning. It's not flawed like Newton theory of gravity isn't flawed - it's what allowed us get to the Moon. It just does not describe the whole picture.
     
  15. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    I'm not sure about that. If weird setup causes completely unrealistic results , then how do you know if "sensible" setup changes are realistic?
    And e.g. infamous lowest tire pressure bug isn't that unrealistic setup if it's in sensible range.
     
  16. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    This is what frustrates me with rF2 the most. I feel like except tire model S397 didn't fix or update anything in the physics engine since they took over. Perhaps some simplified features when they released Formula E etc.
    Except occasional interviews on RD or youtube., where you can hear that "we are looking into it" or "it's on our TODO list" - there's zero feedback on these issues, whether it's on official forum or even in the monthly roadmaps. And as it's with most issues, not only physics related, after couple years you get the exact same answers: "we are looking into it" or "it's on our TODO list".
     
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  17. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    The only exploit that seems obvious to me is tire pressures exploit. I am not sure if there are any other exploits that would be related to rF2 core and not parametrization of individual cars, it can be tricky stuff to judge. I am actually not completely sure about tire pressures exploit either, I haven't even tried to bite what it is to do work with ttool. If I knew ttool very well, then could find something to expand the f***ing knowledge circle lol
     
  18. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    I would not bother too much, it seems people don't know that pressure is a relative dimension, and is relative to ambient pressure, so even "minimum pressure" does not mean FLAT like punctured, and when taking into account tire surface, even low pressure are enough to lift a car's weight.
     
  19. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    Trust me there are a lot more. Some are only car dependent, but not always. But aliens discover exploits in all sims, I think including ACC which only has to deal with GT cars, if that comforts you. So it's not that rF2 is particularly bad in this aspect.
     
  20. pilAUTO

    pilAUTO Registered

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    I'm starting to wonder if ACC is not equaling (or maybe doing better) than rF2 in terms of physics engine.
    If so, all I miss on ACC is the Nordschleife, because it's my favorite track and the GT3 and GT4 are categories that may be enough for me at least in the medium term.
    It's really time for S397 to do something to regain its leadership in terms of the physics engine, otherwise as far as I'm concerned the game is dead.
     

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